tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post115025650797985651..comments2024-03-28T03:15:55.088-04:00Comments on Fetch me my axe: A tentative theory of How Good Ideologies/Movements Go Bad, or at least StupidUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150454783855444242006-06-16T06:46:00.000-04:002006-06-16T06:46:00.000-04:00I'm a true believer that any organization that has...I'm a true believer that any organization that has more than three people running it will become the incestuous, bastard son of itself. I'm allergic to Frootbats, I see them coming a mile away. This is why I join no team, no gang, no cause but my own. I'd rather do it myself.Bamboo Lemur Boys Are Mean To Their Girlshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15854856878692935043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150386858958351802006-06-15T11:54:00.000-04:002006-06-15T11:54:00.000-04:00>The success of organizations are the ones that ac...>The success of organizations are the ones that acknowledge these all-too-human foibles as possible and work to lessen them in a rational fasion. The real threat comes from groups who don't even acknowledge the possibility that their members might have these issues and thus gloss over the actions of the unhinged few.<BR/><BR/>Exactly. Thank you for summing up what I was trying to get at.belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150382875775622302006-06-15T10:47:00.000-04:002006-06-15T10:47:00.000-04:00That's how it *should* work, but it often doesn't,...That's how it *should* work, but it often doesn't, as alon notes. <BR/><BR/>And even taking it a step back from when politicians do it to the personal realm--it depends how invested you are in keeping on the potential apologee's good side. Most people really don't like conflict, I find, and will prefer to walk on eggshells or maintain a stiff silence rather than reopen a subject that they fear belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150377233982271332006-06-15T09:13:00.000-04:002006-06-15T09:13:00.000-04:00yeah, but doesnt admitting that you've changed sho...<I>yeah, but doesnt admitting that you've changed show that you can think..and be a bigger and better person for realizing that?</I><BR/><BR/>Usually, it doesn't. Instead, it shows that you're weak and that what you say is not to be trusted, because you might change your mind later.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150365521217136402006-06-15T05:58:00.000-04:002006-06-15T05:58:00.000-04:00"admitting a change of heart might make one a big ..."admitting a change of heart might make one a big ol' target; and if your cause or belief system or whatever is already marginalized, it could open the door to further criticism."<BR/><BR/>yeah, but doesnt admitting that you've changed show that you can think..and be a bigger and better person for realizing that? why care about someone criticizing you because you've come to another conclusion?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150310390486123902006-06-14T14:39:00.000-04:002006-06-14T14:39:00.000-04:00yes, that works.yes, that works.belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150310129329648222006-06-14T14:35:00.000-04:002006-06-14T14:35:00.000-04:00also, when you say frootbat i think fruitfly and g...also, when you say frootbat i think fruitfly and get nasty images of those little eensy-teensy ones that hover around oranges.midwesterntransporthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02749445416512279883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150310088697875222006-06-14T14:34:00.000-04:002006-06-14T14:34:00.000-04:00i'm thinking of someone who did stand up and say t...i'm thinking of someone who did stand up and say that they had changed their mind: malcolm x. though i wonder if his opinions would have shifted had he not been expelled from the nation of islam. from his autobiography (which i just read for the first time - yeah, yeah, i'm behind) it seems like he was jolted from crisis to catharsis.<BR/><BR/>and yeah, i think you're right, belledame, that midwesterntransporthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02749445416512279883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150304749261390342006-06-14T13:05:00.000-04:002006-06-14T13:05:00.000-04:00thanks.I think it's some of each. On the one hand...thanks.<BR/><BR/>I think it's some of each. On the one hand, yes, there is such a thing as scapegoating; there is also such a thing as group dynamics which are somehow moer than the sum of their individual parts.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand: I do believe some people are more prone to toxic behavior than others, and (at least) should not be in certain positions.<BR/><BR/>if "toxic" is too loaded, belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150304276594819872006-06-14T12:57:00.000-04:002006-06-14T12:57:00.000-04:00"Organizing" is a term used for a reason. In my l..."Organizing" is a term used for a reason. In my long, tumultuous career as an organizer, I've learned to keep my eye on the big picture of moving a group of people towards a goal and not confusing that effort with any one person, frootbat or hero. <BR/><BR/>I've reached the point where I feel I do the most good simply helping humans learn to organize themselves, rather than working on particularChris C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/18412014181198960193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150302064560990692006-06-14T12:21:00.000-04:002006-06-14T12:21:00.000-04:00bigtime. part of it is because people anticipate ...bigtime. <BR/><BR/>part of it is because people anticipate (and sometimes correctly) that the response to "You're right. I fucked up. I'm sorry." will *not* be forgiveness or acceptance or even an acknowledgement and willingness to go on, but rather, "you see! YOU SEE!!! and furthermore, here's what ELSE is wrong with you, you fuck-up..."belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150301396419291002006-06-14T12:09:00.000-04:002006-06-14T12:09:00.000-04:00and don't underestimate the power of embarassment ...and don't underestimate the power of embarassment and humiliation, particularly on a grand public scale. sometimes i wonder how often folks dig in their heels because they don't want to look like an idiot - and they don't want to look *wrong*. so legitimate criticisms become complaints from "Radicals," etc. etc. <BR/><BR/>how often has a politician or head of a major organization, regardless midwesterntransporthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02749445416512279883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150301230240065142006-06-14T12:07:00.000-04:002006-06-14T12:07:00.000-04:00in fact, (yes, Some Of My Best Friends Are...too; ...in fact, (yes, Some Of My Best Friends Are...too; or, well, they probably would be), I'd just use the all-purpose Frootbat instead of "Republicans," there, really.<BR/><BR/>my definition of a Frootbat: someone who is behaving in a way that is not only thoroughly unpleasant but makes no earthly sense to anyone not dwelling in (apparently) the Frootbat's own private universe. And any attempts to belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150300953660751572006-06-14T12:02:00.000-04:002006-06-14T12:02:00.000-04:00As for the eternal question of "but how do you pro...As for the eternal question of "but how do you protect yourself without dehumanizing the Other"--it's a really good question.<BR/><BR/>Right now, at least, I have a bumper sticker that kind of sums up where I'm at, much of the time:<BR/><BR/>"Republicans [fill in your own] are people, too. Mean, selfish, greedy people."belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150300721658944262006-06-14T11:58:00.000-04:002006-06-14T11:58:00.000-04:00...sometimes I think it all comes down to existent......sometimes I think it all comes down to existentialism, and connection. "Look, I'm here, I'm REALLY here!" "and I'm not all alone in the great void!"belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150300626190933172006-06-14T11:57:00.000-04:002006-06-14T11:57:00.000-04:00>A quick and dirty way to get that delicious and a...>A quick and dirty way to get that delicious and addictive surge of importance and power is to humiliate and discredit someone else - and not only does one feel that deep sense of personal gratification in the act itself, but the praise and approval from people higher up the food chain is its own (equally addictive) reward.><BR/><BR/>Yes. It doesn't even have to be someone higher up the food belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150299607144252892006-06-14T11:40:00.000-04:002006-06-14T11:40:00.000-04:00One could examine the French Revolution, or the Ch...One could examine the French Revolution, or the Chinese Cultural Revolution, for further food for thought.<BR/><BR/>sometimes the radfemblogosphere (and the wider blogosphere) feels like one big rotating struggle meeting to me.antiprincesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06675693687192822141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150299066991279832006-06-14T11:31:00.000-04:002006-06-14T11:31:00.000-04:00I think it has less to do with altruistic motives ...I think it has less to do with altruistic motives and more to do with the fact that individual people like feeling important and powerful. A quick and dirty way to get that delicious and addictive surge of importance and power is to humiliate and discredit someone else - and not only does one feel that deep sense of personal gratification in the act itself, but the praise and approval from peopleantiprincesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06675693687192822141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150296579073745592006-06-14T10:49:00.000-04:002006-06-14T10:49:00.000-04:00antip: Yeah, pretty much, power corrupts...and ye...antip: Yeah, pretty much, power corrupts...and yet, there's still the question of *why* you'd/we'd/they'd/one'd *need* to "remain in control."<BR/><BR/>The rationalization is always that it's for the best; if we let go of the reins, "they" will take over and oppress us once again. And the world being what it is, there's probably a certain amount of truth to it. Go ahead and put down your belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150295716263860872006-06-14T10:35:00.000-04:002006-06-14T10:35:00.000-04:00No, WB, I certainly don't mean you; why on earth?....No, WB, I certainly don't mean you; why on earth?...<BR/><BR/>Your RP, for example, I'd define her as a frootbat. while writing this I was primarily going off another conversation on another blog regarding someone else who sounded utterly toxic. and of course my own personal axes, ground.<BR/><BR/>"frootbat" is a commonly used term on a VC I'm on.<BR/><BR/>but yes, we all have a certain belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150291188706133212006-06-14T09:19:00.000-04:002006-06-14T09:19:00.000-04:00I am a frootbat-american; a Woman of Froot.but we ...I am a frootbat-american; a Woman of Froot.<BR/><BR/>but we already knew that.<BR/><BR/>I think what happens is the same thing that happens in large companies, bureaucracies, political parties. The main question changes from "how can we best achieve liberation from oppression" to "how can we make sure we, the leaders, remain important and relevant and in control?" and "how can my organization antiprincesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06675693687192822141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150258747357638792006-06-14T00:19:00.000-04:002006-06-14T00:19:00.000-04:00It's weird, belledame, because I know who you mean...It's weird, belledame, because I know who you mean when you say "frootbats," but something about the spelling and the little headshake/eyeroll I can imagine you doing* while you type it makes me think you mean me. In someone's world, frootbat bin ich.<BR/><BR/>* - not that I have the faintest, &c.A White Bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04378226135352153241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-1150258036983000522006-06-14T00:07:00.000-04:002006-06-14T00:07:00.000-04:00My philosophy has always been: Moderation in all t...My philosophy has always been: Moderation in all things. Yes, even stuff that's 'bad' for you. I personally dislike extremists on all sides. They seem ultimately to only be thinking of themselves and trying to mold others into that image while reveling in their own power.<BR/><BR/>I've been know to be wrong though.Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15704371650551535740noreply@blogger.com