tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post7803239357377869584..comments2024-03-28T03:15:55.088-04:00Comments on Fetch me my axe: a response to TomUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger115125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-73043384309018048162008-02-01T13:15:00.000-05:002008-02-01T13:15:00.000-05:00This is a really good discussion.I've lately been ...This is a really good discussion.<BR/><BR/>I've lately been frequently dreaming with starting what I'd consider to be a real and worthwhile men's rights blog myself, which would be more-or-less similar in approach to a lot of what's been discussed on this thread. The main reason I haven't is that I'm currently trying to use the vast majority of my free time working on my comic book, rather than Barry Deutschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08796981762797604817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-70095844771713558772008-01-22T18:37:00.000-05:002008-01-22T18:37:00.000-05:00cassandra:Considering that no. 2 on the list is us...cassandra:<BR/><BR/>Considering that no. 2 on the list is usually the one that causes the most contention, I've put up a <A HREF="http://eso.terica.net/skinfilter/?p=315" REL="nofollow">post</A> on the subject that might address some concerns. Or raise new ones. Who knows? Anyway, thought I'd note it, since it's relevant.<BR/><BR/>belle:<BR/><BR/>E-mail's on its way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-71956008628507361502008-01-22T06:09:00.000-05:002008-01-22T06:09:00.000-05:00belle:Will do, hopefully within the next day or so...belle:<BR/><BR/>Will do, hopefully within the next day or so. (There are a couple of pressing concerns at the moment, but those should be taken care of shortly.)<BR/><BR/>cassandra:<BR/><BR/><I>Also (and I'm not sure if anyone else is sure about this either) - when people talk about either questioning or accepting basic feminist theory, what exactly does that mean?</I><BR/><BR/>I have no real Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-24576786429463343472008-01-22T01:36:00.000-05:002008-01-22T01:36:00.000-05:00I once offered something similar to your first fiv...I once offered something similar to your first five points as a working definition for feminism. I'm agnostic on just how important the fifth is in practice, though in theory, everyone respects it.<BR/><BR/>What feminists actually let pass for feminism is different, of course... for example, there are informal rules on what you should consider to fall under 2. Some of these things, like pay Alonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267294744186811858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-89445902248058571332008-01-22T00:04:00.000-05:002008-01-22T00:04:00.000-05:00Infra - Your forum idea is potentially interesting...Infra - Your forum idea is potentially interesting, but I share Octo's concerns. Also (and I'm not sure if anyone else is sure about this either) - when people talk about either questioning or accepting basic feminist theory, what exactly does that mean?<BR/><BR/>To me, the basic premise of feminism is very simple and can be summed up thus.<BR/><BR/>1. Women are people<BR/>2. Women are also Cassandra Sayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07775317504418213521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-28615247895933779762008-01-21T23:09:00.000-05:002008-01-21T23:09:00.000-05:00Hey, Hugh, good to see you. I'm not ignoring what...Hey, Hugh, good to see you. I'm not ignoring what you have to say wrt privilege and so forth, just not currently able to engage it properly. hopefully later in the week.<BR/><BR/>Hey, infra,<BR/><BR/>Really interested in what you're proposing: it sounds like a great idea. I particularly like that you're looking to also have transmen & women who tend toward the masculine end of the spectrum. <belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-86666779672746320322008-01-21T01:25:00.000-05:002008-01-21T01:25:00.000-05:00octogalore:Great to hear. When it starts is going ...octogalore:<BR/><BR/>Great to hear. When it starts is going to depend on the response, but I've started to broach the subject with people I know, including some women who have felt somewhat inclined toward masculine roles (or don't consider themselves trans, but not exactly cis, either). Hopefully they'll be interested -- it should balance out the explorations somewhat, in terms of developing a Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-3700465517396662202008-01-20T09:51:00.000-05:002008-01-20T09:51:00.000-05:00Infra: it looks interesting. As you say, an ambit...Infra: it looks interesting. As you say, an ambitious set of topics. Appreciate the invite, and would be happy to participate.Octogalorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14052288318330285365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-24442987869032495232008-01-19T19:01:00.000-05:002008-01-19T19:01:00.000-05:00Deoridhe, I think that is an interesting point - t...Deoridhe, <BR/><BR/>I think that is an interesting point - the half in/out perspective. I think I saw the value of that in another context when I was in undergrad going to an arts degree program after having started in a very technical/gear-head program. I ended up with friends who were both extremely "artsy types" and some extremely non-arty engineer types - and occasionally I'd end up with DBBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17805375811782552873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-47090132869186787612008-01-19T17:02:00.000-05:002008-01-19T17:02:00.000-05:00octogalore:I definitely understand and appreciate ...octogalore:<BR/><BR/>I definitely understand and appreciate the issue of personal focus. I've become more... aware, shall we say, of its value lately.<BR/><BR/><I>Now, were a blog to accept the basic principles of feminism as given but debate various schools of feminism from a critical perspective, eg radical feminism or socialist feminism, that would be something in which I'd be honored to Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-43577397569105804252008-01-19T16:25:00.000-05:002008-01-19T16:25:00.000-05:00infra: I appreciate the intent behind that, and it...infra: I appreciate the intent behind that, and it's certainly better than an assumpion that feminist theory isn't persuasive.<BR/><BR/>It's not that I don't think it's worthwhile to have discussions in which some of the basics of feminist theory are still up for "consideration." It's that for me, it isn't. With a full time gig, a family, and various other things on my plate, I find online Octogalorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14052288318330285365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-32131664739380043522008-01-19T15:59:00.000-05:002008-01-19T15:59:00.000-05:00@dbb and whoever else might want to weigh in:I've ...@dbb and whoever else might want to weigh in:<BR/><BR/>I've put up an outline for a prospective forum <A HREF="http://eso.terica.net/skinfilter/?p=308" REL="nofollow">here</A> -- just some rough thoughts on it, and it might be too broad in scope; that would probably depend on how many people would decide to participate (and on how much time I could dedicate to it). It would probably run vanilla Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-3951243161235187882008-01-19T15:55:00.000-05:002008-01-19T15:55:00.000-05:00The role that sports plays in maintaining and enfo...<I>The role that sports plays in maintaining and enforcing 'masculinity' as a concept associated with teamwork and violence is, I think, a fertile field for exploration, especially by someone who internalized a hatred of the phenomena while trying to avoid it; you're enough outside to examine without too much defensiveness and enough inside to be aware of all of the nuances.</I><BR/><BR/>My guessAlon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-19837731215099192122008-01-19T05:21:00.000-05:002008-01-19T05:21:00.000-05:00octogalore:Not saying that this applies specifical...octogalore:<BR/><BR/>Not saying that this applies specifically (or at all, given the specific mission of the blog) to FC, but: would an acceptable starting point for discussion be, instead of "discussion with us must start with you agreeing with our premises," "our discussions will start with the assumption that feminist theories on these issues are currently the most persuasive?"<BR/><BR/>I Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-32455236403616822172008-01-18T20:54:00.000-05:002008-01-18T20:54:00.000-05:00"Octogalore and I have hashed this point out and (..."Octogalore and I have hashed this point out and (I believe) agreed to disagree"<BR/><BR/>Correct.<BR/><BR/>"I do have to say that this view sounds like 'discussion with us must start with you agreeing with our premises.'"<BR/><BR/>Also correct, for me.<BR/><BR/>"While many feminists believe that the premises of feminism are so solid that they need no more justification and are tired of engaging Octogalorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14052288318330285365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-8507873394627487442008-01-18T12:22:00.000-05:002008-01-18T12:22:00.000-05:00dbb: I don't know that I'd call that prejudice as ...dbb: <I>I don't know that I'd call that prejudice as much as a learned response based on (bad) experience.</I>:<BR/><BR/>In my experience, a lot of prejudices are based on experiences with some members of a group that has been generalized to all members. You know your experience best, though. <BR/><BR/>Re: the whole sports thing - in my experience with men, fewer are interested in sports, and Deoridhehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17235419292633778692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-83397857339648502522008-01-18T04:11:00.000-05:002008-01-18T04:11:00.000-05:00Hi belle. I've found this a really interesting dis...Hi belle. I've found this a really interesting discussion, because I'm always interested in feminists' perceptions of what we are doing over FC.<BR/><BR/>To briefly clarify my position on gender, power, and privilege in society, I believe that:<BR/><BR/>Both men and women suffer from unjust oppressions and enjoy unjust privileges in different contexts, and given different intersections with race,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-25925535793496900662008-01-18T00:43:00.000-05:002008-01-18T00:43:00.000-05:00well the feminist and queer informal canon has thi...<I>well the feminist and queer informal canon has this thing called "fragile masculinity",</I><BR/><BR/>"poor old Hem[ingway] the fragile one." nope, didn't forget the concept, although yeah the term didn't come to mind, thanks.belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-13746481159350611412008-01-17T20:31:00.000-05:002008-01-17T20:31:00.000-05:00I should also point out that the whole "fragile [n...I should also point out that the whole "fragile [noun]" complex actually extends beyond mere masculinity as well - the thing about systems of oppression are that they behave in a rather darwinian fashion, and so you tend to get things like that being produced in other systems wihtout a real causative relationship, simply becuase it's a thing that works to reaffirm that system more than systems R. Mildredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00932355251730998294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-30041376823735415222008-01-17T19:52:00.000-05:002008-01-17T19:52:00.000-05:00I wonder if homophobia functions as a form of male...<I>I wonder if homophobia functions as a form of male bonding in the way trash talking about women does? If so it would probably be something that any mens group would have to keep an eye out for.</I><BR/><BR/>well the feminist and queer informal canon has this thing called "fragile masculinity", which everyone but me has clearly forgotten, wherein the way the psycho-social conception of "R. Mildredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00932355251730998294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-43215698764325317002008-01-16T19:28:00.000-05:002008-01-16T19:28:00.000-05:00I wonder if homophobia functions as a form of male...<I>I wonder if homophobia functions as a form of male bonding in the way trash talking about women does? If so it would probably be something that any mens group would have to keep an eye out for.</I><BR/><BR/>I think that would be even more complicated, because whereas the women can at least be safely "othered," the homophobia often serves as, in my observation as well as experience (women do itbelledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-11774397530116721292008-01-16T19:25:00.000-05:002008-01-16T19:25:00.000-05:00(still reading, need to reread, just snatching at ...(still reading, need to reread, just snatching at bits and pieces here and there)<BR/><BR/>yeah, and maybe "homophobia" is one of those loaded words like "racism" wherein, y'know, it's not an on-off switch or even necessarily should have to be a stigma in itself, like -so and so is ___, unlike most people, and that makes hir a Certified Bad Person-. I go back and forth about the semantics. <BR/>belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-53891051519831090502008-01-16T15:48:00.000-05:002008-01-16T15:48:00.000-05:00"I don't know about the homophobia problem - I am ..."I don't know about the homophobia problem - I am not homophobic, and I sometimes wonder if it is because I really don't have any attraction to men at all. I mean, I could understand having fears there if you were attracted to men and then felt tempted if you 'went there' or whatever. That makes a certain degree of sense. "<BR/><BR/>I've wondered about this. It does seem that in a lot of the men Cassandra Sayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07775317504418213521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-15043925511180000282008-01-16T15:45:00.000-05:002008-01-16T15:45:00.000-05:00D- I was not treated well by males growing up, pro...D- I was not treated well by males growing up, probably because I didn't share male interests and because on top of that, I was also terribly shy, which tends to make any social difficulties that much worse. So it makes me somewhat reluctant in approaching men in ways that I am not in approaching women (not that I go and talk to random women all that much either). <BR/><BR/>I don't know that I'dDBBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17805375811782552873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18375173.post-66126138604688222822008-01-16T14:29:00.000-05:002008-01-16T14:29:00.000-05:00dbb: It is interesting the dynamic you mentioned w...dbb: <I>It is interesting the dynamic you mentioned with your two friends - did you ever ask them about that?</I><BR/><BR/>Friend A said he could never talk to anyone other than women about "those things". I have to admit, it came off as rather sexist of him, which definitely influenced my interest in him.<BR/><BR/>Friend B said there might be something about intimacy and being intimate with Deoridhehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17235419292633778692noreply@blogger.com