Saturday, May 17, 2008

What a -radical- idea, yes.

From Lina at Uncool:

Cos, right - here's a radical thing - if you get raped, it's the man's fault. A man fucks you without your consent - that's not porn's fault, that's not your top's fault, that's not your skirt's fault, that's not a prostitute's fault. It's the man's fault. Cos he's a scumbag. And some men are scumbags and some men will do that to you and they deserve to have their fucking bollocks cut off. And he can blame your top, your skirt, the porn, his bitch mam, that prostitute or whatever, but the fact is, you've probably walked past a million men wearing your skirt and top and those men who've looked at you and thought, "Wow!" watch porn, have dreadful mothers, live in a society where prostitution actually happens and think that that top you're wearing makes you look like Mz Berlin or Darenzia or Marilyn Monroe or whoever floats your boat. But they aren't raping you. So why did the other fucker?

99 comments:

thene said...

...is it bad that the first time she said 'your top' I assumed she was talking about BDSM?

Caroline said...

thene - LOL!

GallingGalla said...

I don't know what to call these people, Lucky Uncle and her gang, anymore, but "radical feminists" they ain't.

Cuz to me, women like Sudy and BA and BFP and little light are the radical ones.

Lucky? Heart? Sam Berg? Rape apologists (and racists) all. And the straight-married-to-men "political lesbians" among them? Colonizers of the lesbian community.

Trinity said...

"...is it bad that the first time she said 'your top' I assumed she was talking about BDSM?"

ahahahahhaah same, that one took me a minute

belledame222 said...

thene: i had the same thought...

gg: agreed.

"cultural feminism" is actually more accurate for this sort of Yay Team Wimminz & Our Mystical Biological Superiority. it gets confusing because a lot of the time, a lot of them employ the language of radical feminism--the whole "doing away with gender" crap, for instance--but if you look at it it's, well, clearly they have no intention of -doing away with- anything, you can't be any kind of sexual or "gender" essentialist and still want to "do away with" any of it, it doesn't work. they play weird semantic games to try to make it hold up, but it--doesn't.

basically they're right wing women who believe in abortion and spend a lot more time complaining about men. even the crunchy home-canning and back to the land shit is not exactly unknown among the extreme right.

and "cultfem," well, let's say it works on several levels.

belledame222 said...

but, like, there's a helluva difference between, say, Shulamith Firestone or Judy Grahn or Flo Kennedy; and Janice Raymond or Sheila Jeffreys or Sonia Johnson.

Alex said...

Me too on the top bit!

Anonymous said...

"...the fact is, you've probably walked past a million men wearing your skirt and top and those men who've looked at you and thought, "Wow!" watch porn, have dreadful mothers, live in a society where prostitution actually happens and think that that top you're wearing makes you look like Mz Berlin or Darenzia or Marilyn Monroe or whoever floats your boat. But they aren't raping you. So why did the other fucker?"
That is the stupidest argument I have ever heard. So a guy manages to *not* rape women, does he get a fucking cookie? just because most men fear the conequences enough to not rape, doesn't mean they are whiter than white. Most men exist on a spectrum from viewing women they sleep with as *actual human beings* to rapists. Yes, there are degrees. A hell of a lot of guys get off on feeling more powerful than the woman during sex. A hell of a lot don't exactly rape, in the sense of holding her down, but pressure her for 3 hours until she gives in, or controls the action and has no concept of listening to what *she* wants because she is just a fuck doll.
So no, rapists don't cause rape - our screwed up views on male and female sexuality does.
Shut up until you get it, because frankly, you do women no favours.

Anonymous said...

And how are Lucky, Heart etc. rape apologists, morons? How? You know, the ones who write about how they hate and condemn rape?
Saying that factors in society enable rape is not absolving men of responsibility.

Trinity said...

"just because most men fear the conequences enough to not rape, doesn't mean they are whiter than white."

Do you REALLY think the only reason men who don't rape don't rape is fear of consequences? Do you really think every man would without them?

I don't live in that world. I live in a world with a hell of a lot of rapists in it, sadly, but not that world.

Trinity said...

"A hell of a lot of guys get off on feeling more powerful than the woman during sex."

And I get off on feeling more powerful than men (and women) during sex. Whoop de shit, as long as everyone knows this and likes it too.

Trinity said...

And how in the hell is saying that regardless of how fucked up society is or is not, the ultimate responsibility for rape lies with the rapists

saying that we don't live in a fucked up culture? Because if you think most non-rads think the culture is just hunky-dory you haven't got good reading comprehension.

GallingGalla said...

Hey, anon, one of your friends, Lucky, had this to say to Ren Ev:

Personally, I could care less what you wear. Hey, run through the streets naked if that's what pulls your trigger! I certainly would if I could get away with it! However, we don't live in that kind of world. You know it and I know it so let's cut the crap. In lieu of this, it's a bit absurd to intentionally wave a red flag at a bull and then start whining that you got the attention you were looking for and the bull attacked you.

Exactly how the *fuck* is this not rape apologism?!?!?

Not to mention the "prostitutes / sex workers deserve to be raped" shit that I've seen thrown at Ren Ev by self-identified "radfems".

Tom Nolan said...

Dear anonymous

Firstly, let me applaud you for your courage: your decision to fight out in the open and to personally identify with your radfem polemic before the court of public opinion testifies to the very highest standards of integrity. Well done, anonymous.

So a guy manages to *not* rape women, does he get a fucking cookie?

What are you talking about? Whoever, wherever, whenever said that men deserve praise for not raping women? Face it, you just came out with that because you think that it's an effective way to counter an obvious truth which is at odds with your worldview: that while most heterosexual men do ogle women, do fantasize about women, do want to have sex with plenty of women, only a minority are rapists.

And how are Lucky, Heart etc. rape apologists, morons?

Luckykncklhd, Heart et al. do indeed exonerate rapists: they suggest that it is the patriarchy which is responsible for the rape of women and that rapists, far from being the exclusive culprit, are just the agents of a more-or-less conscious conspiracy amongst men at large. The rapist who once upon a time would have been made to feel himself a loathsome pariah, is now told that he is, in fact, no worse than the men who, as it transpires, connived in his crime and reap its benefits.

Oh, but you'd already answered your own question, hadn't you?

So no, rapists don't cause rape - our screwed up views on male and female sexuality does

That's rape-apologetics, anonymous.

GallingGalla said...

Oh anon, and this - also posted by lucky:

So what do you think you'll be doing in a couple of years when men consider you an old, haggard, washed up, used up has-been, and toss you to the side of the road like a used up rag doll?

This is *exactly* the same "sex uses you up" shit tactics that the abstinence-only people use.

So, tell me, what's the difference between cultfems and xtian right-wing authoritarians?

And I have to ask a question like a cultfem asked Ren -- Lucky, are you a man?

belledame222 said...

Hey nonny nonny:

Okay, rapists don't cause rape. Marvelous! Which means you, what, agree with lucky that wearing that outfit is like "waving a red flag at a bull?" I mean, that wouldn't be a PART of those fucked up attitudes or anything, would it?

But also: the "cookie" which you refer to would be "not being arrested for rape and going to jail, as opposed to the motherfucker who DID rape, who all too often gets off scot-free, partly in thanks to fuckwits like you who're willing to blame anyone and everything but the MAN who -did it."

and no, for fuckssake, this is not about "real rape" versus "acquaintance rape" or "grey rape" if that's what's going through your tiny mind.

Point, and I will type this very slowly? it doesn't. matter. what. the woman. wears. it's. still. all. the rapist's. fault.

Clear now? Do you need flash cards or something?

p.s. really do not tell me to "shut up" on my own blog, mouse. and pick a fucking pseud, coward.

belledame222 said...

GG: I have to admit, I gave in to temptation and asked her exactly that on RE's. not that it matters, she's strictly hit and run anyway.

belledame222 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
belledame222 said...

and has no concept of listening to what *she* wants because she is just a fuck doll.

uh, yeah, about that whole "listening to what *she* wants." That's true, but that's also true of the "feminist" fuckheads who sneer at women who go "you know, I'd really like it if you -didn't- refer to me as a "fuck doll" or insinuate that I'm too dumb or brainwashed to know what I want, thanks so much."

When you -don't- do that? Insist you know better? Wring your hands and moan and disapprove and glare at/about the WOMEN who, in the words of one "radical feminist" (I will hunt it down if you insist, nonny, I suspect strongly she's not unknown to you), "dress up like a fuckbot and pander to men?"

It doesn't make you a rapist? but it sure it doesn't make you a feminist, either. What it makes you, nonny, is an ASSHOLE, and a sexist one to boot.

belledame222 said...

And how are Lucky, Heart etc. rape apologists, morons?

oh dear right never mind.

-plonk-

I mean, there are only so many hours in the day/so much bandwidth.

belledame222 said...

p.s. I dunno if Heart is a "rape apologist" as such; she's said one shitload of other moronic things but nothing quite as obviously "she shouldn't have been wearing that short skirt, duh" as lucky knucklehead hear just did.

on the other hand, that "checklist" of hers is, well, -beyond- moronic.

you want "moron?" Lucky not only shares your opinion of men, she seriously believes that the only solution is humans willfully evolving toward single-sexed partheogenesis. You're right; that's not "moronic," that's "completely fucking batshit."

belledame222 said...

"here" not "hear." jesus.

Trinity said...

"you want "moron?" Lucky not only shares your opinion of men, she seriously believes that the only solution is humans willfully evolving toward single-sexed partheogenesis. You're right; that's not "moronic," that's "completely fucking batshit."

Belle, you're clearly not a political enough lesbian!

Y'see, to be a REAL womonloving dyke you need to have utterly no use for men's continued existence on Earth, but be hiding a marriage to one.

Now get cracking!

belledame222 said...

you mean Blanche, there, I take it, not lucky uncle.

but yeah, there's being a "political lesbian" who still keeps her husband's name and has never once evinced any sort of hint that she might actually be y'know -attracted- to women, let alone have actual sex with them;

and then there's, well, "I'll huff! and I'll puff! and I'll BLOOOWWWWWWW all the y-chroms in the world AWAY!!"

...which is just a whole nother level of special, isn't it...

Trinity said...

I was running them together for comedic value, yes.

belledame222 said...

Face it, you just came out with that because you think that it's an effective way to counter an obvious truth which is at odds with your worldview: that while most heterosexual men do ogle women, do fantasize about women, do want to have sex with plenty of women, only a minority are rapists.

Well, I take it part of what she's saying here is that there are more actual rapists out there than the ones who are deemed by the courts and society to be REAL rapists, as opposed to "just" the ones who ignore their wives' "no" at the point of coitus, the ones who decide umm uhhh she shouldn't have been wearing that short skirt so it's okay, the ones who just plain don't get caught or aren't convicted or are never accused in the first place because of the way society and the courts work, stacked; and as such, it's at minimum a bigger number than the "minority" which perhaps she thinks we mean. Yes. Indeed.

The mindset that -all- or most men -only- are deterred from fear of punishment, though, is...well, where we really -radically- part ways. Is that why -you- don't murder anyone, nonny? or steal, or force yourself upon someone sexually? Is that the level you operate at? And if not, are you saying that it's 'cause on account of you're a woman and that's it? All men are beasts and they can only control it if they're tamed with the threat of the whip and cage? Do you have -any idea- how completely right wing that is?

belledame222 said...

and per attitudes: as per the whining and pestering for three hours 'til he wears her down: well, that would depend on what's at stake, there. if he's wielding implicit threats over her, i.e. she thinks she has to keep him happy to keep her job, or a roof over her head, much less violence, (no, he doesn't actually have to raise a fist or pull a weapon if he's ever done it before, or if he, like, punches a wall) then yeah, I'd be persuaded.

but if it's more, she just doesn't know how to say no, is afraid to, never learned how...

can I suggest that assertiveness training might be more helpful than all this attention as to what she -wears-? speaking of deeply ingrained cultural values?

Zan said...

Since when do rapists not cause rape? You cannot have a crime without an actor. And the fact of the matter is, no matter what what a person thinks about sex or women, they have to make a conscious decision to rape. Woops, seem I just fell on you with me penis, so sorry?? Come on.

All those attitides, etc. make rape permissable in certain circles, but it does not cause rape. Rapists cause rape, period. You take away the rapists and what do you get? No rape!

Trinity said...

"Do you have -any idea- how completely right wing that is?"

We're radical! We aim the BS at people who aren't us! As opposed to the people we're REVOLUTIN (SISTER RESIST!!!!eleventythree!!!) against, who aimed it at the people who ARE us! See?

belledame222 said...

they have to make a conscious decision to rape.

well, see, that there would be the problem with the whole "men are beasts" argument, I mean from a "feminist" POV (obviously there are plenty of right wingers who are perfectly content to espouse such views even as they simultaneously exhort women to get back in the kitchen where they can be proper little moral agents and/or breeders of the Race). If they're "bulls" and not humans, see, that means in fact they are -not- capable of making a conscious choice, although perhaps one can -condition- them to behave in such and such a way, a la Pavlov.

great, innit?

of course, if one really thinks that men are not only beasts but dangerous ones, like pitbulls, then really the only logical conclusion is to -put them all down.- Wouldn't you say?

I mean, yeah, lucky sits around fantasizing about Gaia's righteous retribution, but wouldn't you think sooner or later it'd occur to someone who thought along such lines, assuming she's -not- just another slut-bashing right winger and really -means- it about "men are beyond redemption," well? Doesn't anyone besides Hothead Paisan or Valerie Solanas reach the obvious conclusion? I mean, yeah, we know, guns are phallic, but hay, being against technology didn't stop the Unabomber from making use of the computer for his manifesto, I'm sure they could work out -something-.

***the above meant to be read as irony only, for any prying beady little eyes, and NOT an endorsement of violence of any kind. Thank you.***

belledame222 said...

more seriously though: if one really has THAT combative and bleak a view of the Way Things Are, then for fuckssake why not leave women's fashion choices alone and start waving the banner for self-defense training? yeah, including weapons if need be. Besides Satsuma's fantasy life, when have you ever seen anything like -that- on any of the usual suspects' blogs? I mean the ones who rant on and on about how TERRIBLE the existence of people like Ren or, like, high heels is. jesus fuck, heels can be a -weapon- if need be, why not talk about -that-, then? Because, even assuming men -are- beasts, you know, threat of bodily harm? one hell of a deterrent, much MUCH more effective than "don't wear that, scowl at women who DO wear that, and yell these slogans at some bewildered bookseller who sells these magazines."

belledame222 said...

oh, you know, I think it's that same UK commenter who was on the Hillary/etc. thread; anyway the trackbacks match up, and I'm no longer on her blogroll, alas. well, so it goes.

belledame222 said...

I mean, I honestly didn't see how anyone who wasn't lucky or any other mouth-breathing sexist would see the problem with this? and I figured, must be a friend of the Usual Suspects? but perhaps her reading of this was colored by her reading of my earlier rant, which is also, well, not how a lot of people read it, but apparently she wasn't -totally- alone.

p.s. eight vaginas: NOT. FUNNY. I R redneck McCain supporter.

'k then.

Lynn Gazis-Sax said...

1) Talk about Bloglines cutting off a post at the wrong point. I read the closing "some men will do that to you and they deserve to have their fucking" and thought, wow, that commentary on rape really ended worse than it started - till I realized I didn't have the full post yet and clicked over here.

2) "Cultural feminism" - yeah, that does get at what bothers me about this line of argument, the kind of "difference feminism, women's ways are better, and darn it, woman, you're letting down the team if you don't live those better women's ways" business.

3) I do think rape, sexual harrassment, and all the rest of it has tons to do with culture, not just individual scumbaggery; I'm convinced of that by just looking at who pushes my sexual boundaries and who doesn't. It hasn't been random. White men, plenty, men of color not so much, almost nobody from the time I married the big tall husband whom men of the scumbag sort are apparently much less willing to offend than they were to offend single me - hey, it looks as if that old radical feminist formulation is right, that it really is about entitlement and power and not lust. And as if even the scumbag sort of men are perfectly capable of respecting my boundaries if they think there will actually be consequences if they don't. But at the same time, even there, most men, even the entitled and powerful ones, manage not to be scumbags enough to actually rape you. And, certainly, the part of culture that's at fault here isn't the "women are dressing too sexy" part, it's the "certain men are being allowed to get away with stuff they shouldn't" part. And talk about waving red flags to bulls feeds that rape culture.

4) Getting off on feeling more powerful than a woman during sex strikes me as not even on the same continuum with pressuring her for three hours till she gives in, or not even listening to what she wants, given that there are people who fully and enthusiastically consent to the "man (or woman) gets to feel more powerful" sex, and really aren't people who are enthusiastic about being badgered for three hours and then having their sexual wants completely ignored once they've given in to the badgering.

belledame222 said...

right, and also, saying culture contributes to, well, rape culture? at a certain point, you -still- need to blame the individuals who enact it, specifically. They don't come to those attitudes in a vacuum, no, but...

belledame222 said...

...or iow, what you said, here.

But at the same time, even there, most men, even the entitled and powerful ones, manage not to be scumbags enough to actually rape you. And, certainly, the part of culture that's at fault here isn't the "women are dressing too sexy" part, it's the "certain men are being allowed to get away with stuff they shouldn't" part. And talk about waving red flags to bulls feeds that rape culture.

which is really i think Lina's entire point as well, and I'm sort of bewildered as to how anon missed this, frankly.

Tom Nolan said...

Doesn't anyone besides Hothead Paisan or Valerie Solanas reach the obvious conclusion?

Yes, I've been much struck by this deficiency. The Patriarchy (i.e. men the bastards) is horribly oppressive to women, cannot be reformed, "dudes", no matter what they say, are all the same and will never change etc. etc. But despite all the "grrring" nobody suggests an armed uprising. Apparently the Patriarchy will just collapse under the weight of its own contradictions or Mother Nature (for some reason I've taken to referring to this august entity as "Cheryl" recently) will eliminate the X chromosome - whichever comes first.

It's as though people were actually quite comfortable with Blaming The Patriarchy for the sake of Blaming The Patriarchy. Surely not. Say it ain't so.

Lynn said...

The rapist is responsible for the rape, and the culture is responsible for the looking away and for the diminishing and for the distortion of justice and for the enabling.

I don't see where it gets so complicated, either you believe that we have the right to live free of violence unconditionally or we don't. There's a shade of gray about what we "deserve" or what is understandable????


Every time we sit around qualifying and adding shit to the mix, we take that right to live without violence from the "absolute" column to the "negotiable" column.

And why the hell are we so hellbent on doing that? If there's one damn thing to rally around, isn't it that? The unconditional end-of-discussion rejection of negotiable human rights?

I'm so tired of debating fashion and the ways we bring our rapes onto ourselves. I'm tired of the "men can't help themselves" thing. I'm tired of equating feminism with the adoption of the same hate patterns that we claim to reject, at least be more transparent if that's what you're doing.Some transparency about racism would be nice as well.

I'm tired of replacement authorities, and why it's "feminist" to even presume to decide what the hell kind of skirts people should wear, much less what the excuseable consequences should be.
I'm tired of the whole competition, the whole pageant. Then the post-pageant apologists, who accuse anyone who disagrees of sour grapes because they weren't crowned. Enough.

The subtext is: You are stupid or asking for fewer rights if you do x, y, or z. You cannot be trusted to know what to do or wear, because, again- you're stupid. And an indoctrinated sucker. And bringing us all down with your oppression-luvin' ways.

And of course, rapists are the product of their culture, so why punish them? They know not what they do!!

belledame222 said...

Hey, welcome, Lynn.

belledame222 said...

and, of course, I agree completely.

belledame222 said...

TN: I expect it's more to do with them buying the part of the Angel In The House Beckons Us Upward-->Women Are The Answer (to war and other Bad Things) myth about how women -aren't violent- than anything else. still, you'd think sooner or later people'd figure out a workaround, they do for pretty much any other ideological constraint that doesn't fit what they want to do...

belledame222 said...

and, Lynn, it's not even subtext a lot of the time. I remember Twisty had this one piece a while back where she actually said, I think in so many words (I'd ranted on it, it's somewhere in the archives, too lazy to look at the moment),

"You're making us all look bad."

...by wearing pencil skirts and fuck-me-pumps, see. great stuff.

Tom Nolan said...

Belle, this is a bit off-topic, but have you ever heard of a feminist theorist going by the name of Lynne Huffer? Apparently I have to attend a lecture cum workshop she's holding next week.

belledame222 said...

never, but that's a great name.

Tom Nolan said...

still, you'd think sooner or later people'd figure out a workaround, they do for pretty much any other ideological constraint that doesn't fit what they want to do...

Yes, they could redeploy the "it's not the real thing if the underclass does it" argument that "proves" women can't be sexist. "Violence is the prerogative of the oppressors. Women aren't the oppressors, they're the oppressed: ergo..." By the way, if any radfem does end up using this line, some acknowledgment would be welcome, Sister. And don't say that I don't try to be helpful to all sides in this debate.

lynn said...

I went off a bit. I guess I was pissed. Sorry. I should have said hello and all that as well.

I just feel a lot of frustration about what I see/hear/observe. A lot of dissappointment.

belledame222 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
belledame222 said...

Tom: It will be quick for you; that is your reward. -nods imperiously-

belledame222 said...

Lynn: No problem, we're all about the ranting in here. I just say "hey" to first-time commenters.

Malik said...

At the risk of getting it chopped off, I'll stick my nose in. There is no justification for rape, and at the same time, much of what we call pornography IS rape. Brutal, sustained rape, on an industrial scale, of trafficked and economically vulnerable women and girls. The same can be said of the sex trade, contrary to what the propagators of the "happy hooker" myth may assert. From where I sit, there is no defense of any industry that profits from such savage and inhuman conduct, and nothing it produces is acceptable. Nothing.

Trinity said...

Malik: Why does that mean the whole industry is unjustified, rather than those horrific segments?

Let's assume for the moment that 95% of the sex industry is rape and exploitation and 5% is not. If one could wave a magic wand and make the 95% go away, would the industry still be unjustified?

If not, why claim that it all is unjustified in a sweeping way?

belledame222 said...

argh.

Malik, , Renegade. Renegade, Malik. I am not in the industry; please talk directly to someone who is, thanks.

belledame222 said...

and, welcome, I just don't want to get into that right now, I really really don't.

belledame222 said...

mostly because, it's really beside the point of this thread ("Blaming women for what they wear or what they choose to do sexually is beyond pointless please cut it out now kthxbai.")

belledame222 said...

can I just say tangentially that the whole imagery of--you are a dude, Malik, I take it from your profile? --sticking one's nose in & fear of getting it chopped off, in the context of, well, everything, is rather, well, erm, ummm...

really, discussions of radical feminist warfare notwithstanding, the axe is metaphorical. mostly.

Malik said...

Trinity:

Because the whole industry tacitly sanctions those "segments" by accepting the money and customers generated by those "segments", and has no intention of doing anything meaningful to restrict the activity of those "segments", which generate the bulk of its profits. It's nothing less than enslavement of women, and in a political and economic environment where women are powerless to determine their own destiny, as is the case in large swathes of Africa, Asia, and Eastern Europe--the regions where the bulk of the industry's economic activity takes place--distinctions between "good" pornography and "bad" pornography are meaningless. Women in the industry are still dependent on the good graces of their "employers" and government officials for their safety and freedom, not to mention the fact that very often the only reason they're in the industry in the first place is because of economic injustice. Nothing about that is acceptable.

belledame222 said...

O.K. Malik? and trin, too, sorry. Not doin' it here. No. See above posts.

Trinity said...

Belle: No problem. :)

belledame222 said...

<3 thanx

Malik said...

Roger.

belledame222 said...

belledame. -bows-

queen emily said...

rubbish thread is rubbish

Renegade Evolution said...

Better late than never...

::See's belle's moratorium on Porn Is Rape, nods::: Malik, i'd be happy to discuss that with you elsewhere.

I had the "top"/bdsm moment too.

There is NO difference between Lucky's Bull and the same bullshit we see men (and lawyers) throwing out all the time as to Short Skirt = asking for it. None. Not radical in he least.

Anony- blow it out your ass.

Sassywho said...

"So no, rapists don't cause rape - our screwed up views on male and female sexuality does."

Wow, I'm sure that's comforting to sexual assault victims. I have no doubt that in a society that sanctions rape some men misinterpret that as permission to violate another human being, but ultimately that is a failure of the rapist to distinguish right from wrong. It is society's duty to not sanction it, the concepts may be intertwined but that does not mean causation. Many men can, and do make that distinction that doesn't mean they get a cookie, it just means that they are decent human beings.

Rape isn't a disease spread insidiously by porn or short skirts or some other "cause", treating it as such operates from a suspiciously medical model. Presuming that there is a cure for rape that resides anywhere but the rapist places a concentrated burden on sexual assault victims to find that cure. After all they are the ones suffering.

Now, if we want to talk about how to change society so that it no longer sanctions rape, a pretty good place to start would be removing the madonna/whore narrative, or good/bad feminist if you prefer. Remove the notion that how women express their sexuality has anything to do with how men rape. But anony, that would kind of require you to go past go, not collect $200 and start over.

Iamcuriousblue said...

What's striking is, except for the obvious anti-male stuff, the rhetoric of somebody like Luckynckl fits right in with a lot of the comments that are being posted at this far-right blog, right down to the "old and washed up whore" comments.

Coincidence? Or just another case of "radicals" who are so in love with their own special radicalness that they've lost all capacity for self-reflection.

"Examine" that, assholes!

belledame222 said...

Many men can, and do make that distinction that doesn't mean they get a cookie, it just means that they are decent human beings.

See, apparently in some peoples' worldview, that IS a cookie*.

I mean, technically I suppose even "not going to jail for the crime of rape" could be a "cookie;" most people understand that it's reward enough, but still isn't one they'd relinquish lightly if they, you know, didn't actually rape anyone.

and I am just about to declare another moratorium on the whole fucking "cookie" business; it's getting as tiresome as the "straw person" trope.

belledame222 said...

oh Christ, iacb, you had to go and hyperlink me to Ace of 'Nads? what'd I ever do to you?

Tom Nolan said...

Tom: It will be quick for you

SwhwhiiiiiishhhhhTHUNK!

*bounce* ~ *bounce*

"There's yer fucking hat-tip, Brother."

Kim said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kim said...

"and I am just about to declare another moratorium on the whole fucking "cookie" business; it's getting as tiresome as the "straw person" trope."

Could you please, Belle?
In fact, I think "cookie" has turned "straw person" in itself. They have morphed into one of the same.

Can I have a cookie for that observation?

Kim said...

One more time on Cookie: cookie is just an easy way to say "I hate you and your ass face! I don't care what you say, can't hear you, don't want to hear you, I've labeled you/your sex/race/class etc. Something I Don't Like and I don't to change so I say to you "What? You think you deserve a COOKIE?"

There. So easy. Done.

Now I sit back and wait for my "Great post, So and So!" comments.
Tah dah.

Kim said...

"don't WANT to change"

Whoops.

Love,
Cookie Monster

Kim said...

Sorry.
Deleted my first comment as upon reading it, it sounded like I was Pro Cookie.

Which I ain't

And rapists are responsible for rape.
The end.

Kristen said...

Two cents on this...

We can judge a society based on the actions of its members. (Rape culture = bad)

We can only judge individuals based on their own actions. (Rapists = bad. Men = morally neutral until proven otherwise)

This really shouldn't be that hard. I know it's easier for rad fems to lump people...but easier does not mean better...

Anonymous said...

74 comments.

60 of them by belledame.

Trinity said...

It's her blog, dearie.

belledame222 said...

61, now, but who's counting?

No, really: who the fuck are you?

andi said...

"So a guy manages to *not* rape women, does he get a fucking cookie? just because most men fear the conequences enough to not rape, doesn't mean they are whiter than white."

Actually, even after being rape both as a kid and as and adult - I've come to the conclusion that most men don't rape, not because they fear the consequences, but because they don't believe in hurting others. True most men are not "whiter than white" as you term it -- but neither are most women. They're just folks, trying to do the best they can, with out hurting others too much. Most men DO care about how the women they have sex with feel, what they want and when they say "no", most men DO know that their real strength comes not from forcing others to do what they want but from giving and receiving love.
As for this: " In lieu of this, it's a bit absurd to intentionally wave a red flag at a bull and then start whining that you got the attention you were looking for and the bull attacked you."
Um, yeah and I was raped the first time at about 10 ( two weeks before my 11th b-day) in my bed, in my footie pajamas. What fucking excuse do you freaks have for that freak? What excuse do you have for the males who rape nuns, elderly women, coma patients, toddlers and even infants? What "red flag" where we waving when it happened to us.
Most men don't rape because they are not rapists, nothing more, nothing less.
And it's time we stopped making anyone the culprit but the rapists. Decent men, included.

Malik said...

However much pornography as a direct causal factor in rape may be disputed, it seems evident to me that rape is one end of a spectrum of acts that arise from a culture which reduces all human beings, and especially women and girls, to sexual commodities that can be acquired, consumed and disposed of at will. It also seems evident to me that pornography is one of the most powerful elements sustaining that culture. We've become inured to being dehumanized. In fact, it occurs to me that pornography is culturally equivalent to gangsta rap, which helps to explain why they're so frequently fellow-travelers. They're equally pathetic, insipid, asinine, and degrading and white guys are the biggest producers and consumers of both. The consequences of these complementary enterprises are that men and to an increasing degree women feel entitled to do anything from addressing complete strangers with demeaning language ('sup nigga/'sup bitch) to violently assaulting another person based on their appearance and demeanor (she came up to my place wearing that outfit, she knew what the deal was/He was a young black male wearing "gangsta" type clothing and moving in a threatening manner, that's why I put 50 bullets in his ass your honor). Now does pornography cause rape? Absolutely not. Does gangsta rap cause police brutality. Absolutely not. Do they contribute to an environment and mentality which rationalizes and tolerates those phenomena? Absolutely.

Iamcuriousblue said...

Malik –

You know, you may have missed this, but the owner of this blog has said several times that you really should take the Great Porn Debate to another blog where they might be more interested (clue: try here or here), so I've been trying to respect that too.

But one thing I'm wondering, not about porn, but rather about anti-porn folks – there's a tendency among anti-porners, regardless of ideology, to pontificate on the subject and generally talk at people mercilessly, and damned if you aren't doing it to the hilt right now, mister.

Why do anti-porn folks like yourself choose to communicate in this way? I'd really like to know. Do you think you're actually reaching people?

Renegade Evolution said...

Heya Anony- Wanna go on a date?

Malik said...

Perhaps I misunderstood BDs intent. She and RE said that she didn't want to have a debate about whether, in RE's words "Rape Is Porn". I didn't realize that amounted to a total prohibition of discussing the relationship between sexual assault and pornography. If it does, I'll take my leave.

Renegade Evolution said...

Malik: Here ya go. A thread elsewhere for the topic. Anyone who wants to comment can, and Belle can look away!

http://renegadeevolution.blogspot.com/2008/05/porn-debate-thread.html

Anthony Kennerson said...

Ahhh, Malik, allow me to spare you the trouble.

As for some link between porn and rape: well, yeah, it is true that porn tends to induce male erections, which tend to be needed to commit the act of rape. But, most men have erections and don't feel the need to sexually assault a woman; and there are lots of men who absolutely hate and despise porn with the same arguments you raise, but don't let that stop them from hating and even assaulting women.

So...tell us again about the link between porn and rape??

Yeah, right. Same old tired ideology. Take it somewhere else, fool.


Anthony

Anthony Kennerson said...

Oh, and nice touch, Malik, with the alleged connections connections between porn, rape, and gangsta rap....never mind that porn is also widely associated with rock-n-roll, heavy metal, and other musical venues. But I guess that only us Black folk are predeposed to commit violence against women merely by getting off on porn and rap, now are we??

And last time I checked, Belle didn't invite you to have a debate on porn here in the first place. Her blog, her rules. If you want to make your case, I suggest going to Maggie Hays' or Heart's or Witchy-Woo's blogs, you'll get a much friendlier response there.


Anthony

Malik said...

Well, I assumed that since the issue raised was an alleged connection between rape and porn, that the issue was open for discussion. I further assumed that since this is a public blog with unmoderated comments, and my own blog is listed in the blogroll, that I was implictly invited to offer my own perspective on any issues raised here. I see that was a mistake. As I said, I'll take my leave.

Iamcuriousblue said...

"Well, I assumed that since the issue raised was an alleged connection between rape and porn"

Um, no – just because the words "porn" and "rape" get mentioned in the same paragraph does not mean the topic at hand is the great meta-debate about the Effects on Society of Pornography. I think if you go back and actually read the original post and the commentary following, you'll surely notice that.

belledame222 said...

-headdesk- you know, I just got back from getting a good-sized chunk of flesh hacked off my face, so kind of not really in the mood to be modly here. but, i would be if i were. that includes everybody.


that last comment of yours was closer to on-topic than the opening salvo, Malik, but yeah, what iacb said, if less harshly, and again, RE is offering a place to have that particular debate. really, it's a good place for it, highly recommended. I may even participate. much, much later.

(hey, look, "nony," 62 comments! what do I win? could it maybe be your taking me off your bloglines, since you're clearly not liking what I have to say, or at least having the guts to post with your regular pseud, since you already did once and it's not that hard to figure out who you are? pip pip)

belledame222 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
belledame222 said...

...yeah, of itself, that comment, it's more related to the other people talking about culture as influential in general, and I do have more to say specifically about it but I am really tired right now, and also honestly it's just one of those subjects that a lot of us have been over approximately 900,000,000,000 times; and while I don't mind going another round I would prefer to do this one at Ren's, if at all. Thanks.

belledame222 said...

(i guess the stitches aren't preventing me from typing): and yeah, Anthony especially, really, dial it down: I also didn't ask you to moderate my blog, and I generally try to at least assume a modicum of good faith in people who y'know respond at all (kicks -nony-)

Malik said...

I tried RE's link, but I think it was incomplete.

Trinity said...

Malik, try this.

If that doesn't work, I think it's the most recent post on her blog currently.

CrackerLilo said...

YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!

Anthony Kennerson said...

My sincere apologies to Belle and everyone else here for my last post. I was not quite in my proper head when I wrote that, and I didn't mean to overstep my bounds.

I simply just get so fed up with people like Malik attempting to slander innocent people to sell his antiporn agenda. But, it is Belle's blog, and I had no right to pile on in this venue.

I have to remember that sometimes I can't use another person's weapons to go nuclear on someone.

My apologies, Belle.


Anthony

belledame222 said...

Accepted, thanks.

Daisy said...

Trackback:

See my friends!

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