piny gets in a good, serious point amid the joyous mockery:
...I’ve also been part of a few other queer communities who all had this sort of problem with femmes and feminine people. None of them, oddly enough, had a terribly low concentration of masculine people. Heck, you don’t even need to stick with the gays–fear of effeminacy has plagued anxious wannabe revolutionaries all over the place.
as does holly
Your arguments about how femininity holds sway in gay communities are unlikely to get more than a jaw-dropped “what the fuck is he talking about?” as long as it’s the more feminine men who are receiving the brunt of physical abuse, harassment, violence, as long as there are legions of personal ads in every corner of the internet looking for “straight-acting guys” and as long as bodybuilder images of idealized masculinity hold sway in gay porn and in what gay male communities believe they’re supposed to look like. Your points about some of these visions being very narrow is valid — so why don’t you actually talk about that in a positive, expansive way instead of bashing feminine guys, which the rest of the homophobic world is already doing ALL THE TIME. It makes you look like an asshole who’s happy to get his hands dirty doing the work of the homo-hating, femininity-hating, woman-hating, trans-hating system.
and little light
And here I thought one of the best parts about masculinity was using your strength to protect the vulnerable folks in your community. Y’know, instead of joining in with the folks going after them.
Shit, honey, I have a manicure right now that I’d be happy to mess up in a good brawl to look after my own, so what’s that say?
...I mean, some of those queer samurai you’re so enamored of went into battle in makeup, and they weren’t scared of shit, you know? And the Spartans, by all accounts, took their sweet time before Thermopylae combing and dressing each other’s hair.
Real toughness, and real masculinity–in men or women–involves getting over all that superficial nonsense and taking care of the people who need you. You know, like those fags you sneer at because even women are willing to whup ‘em, or something. I mean, yeah, the Spartans killed weak babies–but they also never figured out indoor plumbing.
meanwhile, over at this update at Nine Pearls, we started to speculate on what might be proper courtin' behavior for a couple of non "faggy," "androphile" Rod McManlypantses. I figure, actually, rather than either party buying the other dinner...maybe you both ride out into uncharted, savage lands on your ungelded stallions, and together kill a wild animal with your bare hands, then either build a fire and roast it or simply tear it to pieces raw and devour it. then have manly, passionate sex amid the bloody remains.
yes, that would be more like it.
corsages are totally okay though, as long as they aren’t orchids. something manly, like a sprig of spruce, or a clump of particularly phallic mushrooms.
Oh, lordy - Little Light is hysterical! Thanks for pointing me to this thread; I'll have to go read the whole thing now.
I love people who throw around "ad hominem" to demonstrate they don't know what it means.
tu quoque! strawhominem! Romanes Eunt Domus!
He seems to have missed my point, for some reason, about there being a positive, strong version of masculinity that he's, uh, not displaying.
Whyever wouldn't he address such a thing? And his reply to the samurai bit? No, chum, that was the perfume and the hair and the grooming, for leaving a respectable corpse. The samurai who went into battle in women's makeup were another matter, chum...
but, he's got the mustache working for him. and the black shirt. he doesn't need all these Village People namby-pamby lily-livered camp versions of -real manhood.- He's so butch he puts the "Sissy" in Cassidy. He takes up twelve seats in the subway all by himself! He's a MAN'S MAN, MAN. *man.*
let's see, butch men who love butch men... yeah they're so threatened
why then was i around a metric TON of 'em at [city] Leather Pride on Saturday?
*head* *desk* *head* *desk*
and guess what, the leathermen I was hanging with? did not seem to have this whole veneer of "anyone who is not butch is unworthy"
funny, that... actual niceness thing!
guh. what an asshole.
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