Sunday, June 03, 2007


Follow the link from here, here, or here. Read the entire. fucking. comment thread, against your better judgment, hell, even your -worse- judgment. Curse friends who sent me and now you there, consider it like one of those fucking chain letters or something. Appreciate curiousgyrl, Virago, Moira, Mireille, and a few other valiant souls, as long as you're there. Also, while you're in there, if anyone sees my eyeballs, could you pick 'em up, dust 'em off and send 'em to me? They'd be round, blue iris, bloodshot, multiple entry wounds from writing implements. Thanks, I'd appreciate it, they were expensive.

Note to "Lousia May Alcott:"

Yes, in point of fact, it does. And so do you. Along with a few other winners.

and by the way? Explaining to the peanut gallery about male and female reproductive organs and how they are Necessary for reproduction and that is what will never, ever change, unlike gender, which is whatever's convenient for you at the moment the source of All Oppression? Makes you sound like 1) the reactionary that you are, apart from the self-serving goalpost shifting of "gender" 2) a fucking moron, especially when you include "winkies" about--oh, no, I just can't anymore, NOT WITHOUT MY EYEBALLS


Trinity said...

i got to "at odds with the Twistolution" and ran screaming. CAN NOT DO.

belledame222 said...

i was mostly numb by that point.

J. Goff said...

I've been following that too. Sigh. Some things do not change.

I did laugh that "Mar Iguana" used the term manometer when she meant "Man-o-meter." But it was more of long-suffering, grimly amused (a la Ren) sort of chuckle.

J. Goff said...

A manometer being something completely different that what she thinks.

Nanette said...

I'll get outraged (yet again) in a moment (or maybe I may just save my eyeballs), but for now I just have to laugh at the Shesus graphic. How perfect is that?

Sassywho said...

i had no idea.... and i am speechless.

Anonymous said...

I somehow made it through to the very end (albeit by skimming quickly through some of the posts) and I think there are some feminists out there who live in ivory towers of a height that would require oxygen masks to breathe up there! I've never seen so much theorising without any reference to actual data (except in religious fundamentalism).

I just wish I felt anyone would listen if I posted there, but my experience of being an ethnic minority (despite being white) and similar, I suspect would not be accepted as valid...

Anonymous said...

Oh yeah - and Norah Vincent should be required reading for some of them.

Renegade Evolution said...

Belle; Nope, I shall not sip of the TwistyLand Kool-Aid. I shall not read that thread and scar my own eyes. Reading the "here, here and here" was enough...and yep, religious fanatic is a pretty close analogy.

Thank God I am fallen woman...

Anthony Kennerson said...


What that hell can you say about these people except...well, WOW.

Such blatant bigotry.

And I'll bet that Twisty is laughing her ass off behind the curtain as her sockpuppets...errrrr, her allies Heart(less), Mar Iquana and Delphyne carry the water for bashing transsexuals as anti(radical)feminist.

I especially like the way that Heart cuts right to the chase when R. Mildred tries to challenge her BS:

R. Mildred: For instance, Heart and delphyne “feel” that transwomen are men who are enabling the patriarchy through a process of… having their body’s physically altered so that they can become women - a miracle then occurs - and this supports patriarchal constructions of sex and gender.

[Heart's response]
And this is bullshit.

I think that there are males and females and intersex persons born into the world. I think that males have instituted and perpetuated systems of dominance to subordinate and enslave females. I think they called the females “women” and themselves, males, “men.”

Feminism aims to end this sexist bullshit, i.e., male dominance, in all of its expressions, including the expression which amounts to denying the having of male privilege. If you were born male you had it.

Full stop.

And then, there is this bit of brilliant reasoning from msxochitl:

Of course we are all real people. But we are also products of our environment. If I don’t feel that I fit in with the notion of what my gender is supposed to be, where do I look for answers? Maybe I look to psychiatrists, to friends, to people who write about gender theory. And what kind of explanations are those sources likely to offer, to help me explain my situation? How familiar and sympathetic are these sources likely to be toward the notion of gender abolition and the critique of patriarchy?

In a political climate where radical feminism flourishes, where calls for gender abolition are widespread, you might have more women who identify as lesbian, rather than transgender.

In a climate where a more postmodern, sexual libertarian, individualist analysis of gender prevails, you might have more women who choose to transition to male, rather than claim a lesbian identity.

In other words, we are all free human beings...but some women (read, pure radfems) are more equal than others, and when ideology is met with reality, ideology should always prevail. Especially OUR ideology.

"Twistolution" is to true revolution what Nazis were to socialism...a bastardization and a big damn lie. Blame the patriarchy, my AAAAAASSSSSSSS.


antiprincess said...

oh no ya don't. not me. not this time.

but I'll let you borrow my eyeballs.

belledame222 said...

it's like we all take turns, or summat.


belledame222 said...

how the hell are you anyway AP?

Anonymous said...

I actually thought that thread began as one of the more reasonable ones I've read, at least while Twisty was moderating. The discussion with Thalia of Pandagon was quite interesting, too. Alas, once Twisty stopped moderating, it became a case of "thar be trolls".

I, of course, needing something to procrastinate on studying for exams, stupidly read through the whole thing. I do believe that comment about nexyjo (of all people, wtf) sending her "manometer" off was one of dumbest quotes I've seen in the trans wars threads.

Elizabeth McClung said...

Wasn't there some sort of trans hating thing going on months ago; does it just change webpages; is it like The Ring and eventually G. Greer will emerge from your computer to tell you why trans, intersex women and CAIS women aren't really women at all because they don't have functioning wombs and that being a feminist means taking the power to find some group to exclude apparently.

Honestly I have NEVER understood the double hostility to trans women (now the second hostility to FTM's) - I sort of thought that finding and helping marginalized women into the light of acceptance and community was like...a good thing - you know the: Hey, you had to lie about who you were for 20 years, wow that sucks, but I'm glad you're here now. I didn't realize that at 3.3 billion we had reached some magic "no more women unless they have their pureblood creds please"

Hahni said...

Heh, I didn't realize that long-ass thread was still going on over there, 400+ comments later. So I took a quick skim, and I think I fell in love a bit with Artemisian.

It's interesting to me; when the comments started turning, as they usually do, to trans-bashing, and then got really heated, Twisty put up a very angry post about bullshit commenters who get on her last nerve and make her want to quit blogging.

But the commenters she was referring to were not in that trans thread--this was a completely different thread, and she had nothing to say about how the bug post had descended into a trans-bash fest.

I dunno; I think I still retain a modicum of respect for Twisty, if only because the main context I know her in is the cancer and what's its taken from her. So I don't know if she was always this wry and blase and jaded-acting, or if that's just online persona and/or cancer talking.

I mean, she may very well be a high-class bitch in real life, who knows? Or maybe being sick has changed her. Or...well fuck, I don't know.

Maybe I'm just feeling sappy about illness right now.

Anonymous said...

I just remembered this post I made just a couple of days ago, which maybe reflects why so many feminists are so anti-transpeople:

The original article was about exclusionism in - guess what? - (fundamentalist) religion.

belledame222 said...

I hadn't even been paying attention to the erstwhile hostess in this instance; there's quite enough else going on.

and yeah, the reason i kept at it was that in fact there were some really good comments.

i think the entrance of the other Queen Bee there might've been what tipped it into noxious unreadability. by that time i'd stapled myself to death though, so it's hard to really be objective.

belledame222 said...

Elizabeth: I was starting to think of it as Star-Bellied Sneetches, myself. you know. it's not SPECIAL if just ANYONE can have one.

Allie said...

I consistently forget (repress) the fact that there are people who don't believe in transpeople: that is, believe that transwomen are actually men faking it and vice versa.

Reading that crap in that thread actually made me want to punch something, and I am a flat-out wuss not inclined to violence.

How dare they. How fucking dare they spew that toxic crap on the same internet as ... as I'm using, shall we settle on.

But really, thinking about it scares the bejeesus out of me, because if they're that ready to dismiss the right to self-identify in that way, I'm terrified to think of the rights they'd want to deny me. The kind of *person* one would have to be to say that and mean it...*shivers* Scary beyond all reason.

little light said...

oh, hell, I'm actually gonna fail my willpower roll and look, aren't I?

Por Dios.

belledame222 said...

"Misery loves company."

actually there are a few well-deserved and well-executed ass-kickings along the way. but yeah, on the whole...well, keep away from sharp implements.

anyway i just told piny about the thread, of whose existence she'd been blissfully unaware, subsequently got rather enraged, surprise, surprise.

Anonymous said...

I haven't been on board for the Twistylution ever since her somments about a waitress who looked too thick lipped for her skin tone as obviously having had collagen injections, and therefore being a patriarchal fembot.

It just seems really glaring that for all their talk about the threat of transpeople and the possibility of "passing" they never think about how the same notion applies to race.

Heart's conflating race with phenotype is really galling. Much in the same as trans identities, it's very possible to be a light skinned Mexican-American who is pretty well assimilated without being white even if they do have a tenuous hold on white priviledge.

In the meantime, Heart's resoponse to questions about what we can do lead to news articles. And while information may be a call to action it never addresses the how of the situation.

Alon Levy said...

anyway i just told piny about the thread, of whose existence she'd been blissfully unaware, subsequently got rather enraged, surprise, surprise.

Off-topic, isn't Piny male?

J. Goff said...

Off-topic, isn't Piny male?

I'm fairly certain sie made a post recently saying that sie no longer identifies that way, but I'm not certain.

Ravenmn said...

I glanced and scanned. In an odd way, I find it comforting to see that gang over there and not in places I prefer to hang out. Let them spew all their venom somewhere I don't have to see it!

On a perfectly ridiculous level, I'm thoroughly pissed that some scumbucket deliberate chose the name of my patron bird to spew garbage. Our corvid role is to clean up road kill, not contribute to it. Squawk!

Donna said...

Once I am out east, I need to come to NY or you need to come to CT, so we can meet, fear the noogie! I owe you a noogie for making me read even one quarter of the latest trans-bashing thread at IBTP!

Here I am mostly offline getting that damned house sold and come back to that? I can see why you brought the hostility to radfems on Shannon over at BA's now. Just remember that WOC radfems generally aren't anti-trans, and in fact alot of white radfems aren't either. There are a few very vocal and confused radfems who believe in gender essentialism at the same time as hold the belief that gender is a social construct, did I mention that they are confused? lol

I should mention that I have had a hysterectomy. I raise my fist in solidarity and sisterhood (brotherhood?) with transwomen who are really men like me since we don't have the required womb to be "real" women.

I should be ashamed of my silence, but I'm too proud of my son that I have to tell a story. A couple weekends back we got together with some of my husband's relatives. His bigoted Republican aunt was there talking b.s. about gays, Jewish liberals who own the media, and Mexicans. At which point I dropped my head on the table and said, "I need to drink heavily, someone give me a shot of whiskey or three." My son was sitting there looking dazed and the hag asked him what he thought (he's 14). He told her, "Everything you said is the exact opposite of what I was taught to believe about people." He also said something about hating and judging people is unChristian which flustered her and she started talking about all the gays she loves, like on Will and Grace. *snicker*

Amber Rhea said...

I won't do it. I've had my fill of stupid for the week, thanks.

belledame222 said...

noogie noogie!

and yeah, i know, and i certainly never thought Shannon was anti-trans; I'm just exasperated with her wrt the femme thing, we've gone through this before.

belledame222 said...

and, good on your son.

and, oy. "some of my best favorite TV characters are!...I AM TOO a good Christian, i watch TV."

"Jesus wept."

"I Blame The Assholes"

belledame222 said...

I glanced and scanned. In an odd way, I find it comforting to see that gang over there and not in places I prefer to hang out. Let them spew all their venom somewhere I don't have to see it!

there is that. And now they have message boards, apparently, which ought to keep 'em busy, one hopes.

and yeah, ravenmn, I thought of you when reading that particular asshat, with a vicarious cringe on your behalf. SQUAWK indeed...

belledame222 said...

AL, JG: yes, she rethought things and posted about it a few months back, and her preferred pronouns are the female ones (I asked).

belledame222 said...

...and, totally, Donna, send me an email when you're settled. yay!

In the meantime, Heart's resoponse to questions about what we can do lead to news articles. And while information may be a call to action it never addresses the how of the situation.

Well, you know, getting all worked up is the same as actually doing something. Which makes it totally okay for her to pull shit like "critique" various activist groups who use too much pink and so forth.

J. Goff said...

I'm fairly certain sie made a post recently saying that sie no longer identifies that way, but I'm not certain.

Wow, was it just the fact that is was early that this sentence is one big contradiction? I really need to learn to proofread.

belledame222 said...

i thought it was kind of charming, really.

"It's so crowded, nobody goes there anymore."

Anonymous said...

I tried to read the thread but only the original post is readable on my computer (which has had other, earlier problems mostly fixed). The comments all run into each other, lines overlap etc and it loads so slow from the comments point on and - oh, well. I pretty much know what's there on one side, but it's a pity not to be able to see the good stuff.

I wonder also about the point at which the politics and theories become more important than people and why. It's ironic that if ever proof were needed that women are indeed human too and can be as egotistical, easily led, blind, single minded, vicious, un-empathetic etc, in pursuit of whatever - as men can, it's the self-proclaimed most feminist of feminist women who seem to be providing it.

As shocking as it's been to observe over a couple of years on the net, I think I'm kind of absorbing and 'appreciating' the clarity of this.

Anonymous said...

While this turns my stomach, I'm not even going to bother, because some people, it seems will never learn their lessons. Observe:

"Gender is something that is done to people without our consent. Race is something that is done to people, without our consent."

That came from Heart, emphasis mine. Excuse me while I go bang my head against a wall.

Anonymous said...

That came from Heart, emphasis mine. Excuse me while I go bang my head against a wall - emily

The amount of structural damage that that woman has to answer for...

belledame222 said...

oh, so THAT'S how we're going to bring down the towering edifice of Patriarchy.

antiprincess said...

Once I am out east, I need to come to NY or you need to come to CT, so we can meet

welcome home Donna - drop by for coffee and noogies anytime!

Anonymous said...

What? You've been having a youknowwhofest without me?

belledame222 said...

yes, because i am evil and capricious like that.

anyway there's no juicy theory or hairsplitting here. i'm not even interested in her. and i wouldn't have mentioned it. just ARRRRGGGGHHH transphobia is really not all that fucking complicated to understand unless one doesn't want to, really.