Friday, March 21, 2008

A moment of clarity

The following comment, found in the ongoing discussion here, just threw a switch for me. And yes, this is still the argument over whether radical feminists should accept trans women as women, much less let them into the clubhouse, so I'm going to leave the reply worded as it is. Nonetheless, I think, you know, you could substitute a number of other specifics here wrt the community in question as well as the thing/population that is being adamantly rejected here. (For example: I think the "War On Christmas" works according to similar principles. You may have your own examples)

The quote:

“I want the ability to be with like-minded individuals and only like-minded individuals.”

Sure, we all have affinity groups. Sociology talks a lot about such things. There's always a point of friction where the boundary comes up -sometime-, at -some point.- Ruptures happen. Lines are drawn. Connections are broken. It happens everywhere. Not trying to say it doesn't.

But here...well, it interests me, because it's coming up at the same time that the argument is supposedly y'know that they're going for this expansive sisterly communion, radical feminism (by the lights of people like this) is all about Class Woman, all 3+ billion of us, you know, we are strong, we are powerful...which is why the stakes are so high, because it's a -universal- movement, not just another little political faction or clique.

AND at the same time, there is an insistence that the -real- danger that transfolk pose to the women-only space is that they threaten the "safe space."


This is, in fact, what's on the table; this is what's being so passionately defended when the author (and others) start talking about "radfemphobia" as a counter to the term "transphobia" (which is simultaneously being rejected and mocked as invalid).

“I want the ability to be with like-minded individuals and only like-minded individuals.”

The response:

Here’s a question: why? And, what do you mean by that exactly?

Because that’s very telling, to me. You’re not even really interested in mystical sisterly communion, much less political effectiveness, so much as being around people who you don’t have to argue with. Like, at all.

“Birds in their little nests agree…”

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but: even if you do manage to purge your community of all dissenters on transpeople (much less the transpeople themselves), sex work/prostitution, femme accoutrements, BDSM, and so on and so forth, there’s -still- going to be something that’ll tear you apart. Does. Hell, I can see it happening from here. Yeah, it happens to everyone, we all have fights, often over stupid shit, but y’all…I gotta tell you, from where I'm sitting? you really put the “fun” back in “dysfunctional.” This goes a good way toward explaining why.

It’s, like, a -betrayal,- isn’t it, when your “sister” suddenly turns out to be, -not- an extension of yourself, but -a completely whole other person-. -Different.- This isn’t what you signed up for! You came for the merge! This was supposed to fix everything! Why, it makes you feel so, so…*alone*. Again. And terrified.

Welcome to life.

Welcome to adulthood.

There -is- no “safe space” in this world that’s gonna be safe enough, if that’s your criteria.

You know what really makes a space safe, relatively speaking, ime? Trust. Acceptance. Compassion. Even, dare I say, tolerance.

And sure, everyone -asks- for those things. Even you. Hell, sometimes -demand- it.

But, if you really want a -community-, and not just a clique or some other c-word? You have to give a little to get a little.


Rootietoot said...

Isn't this way of thinking somewhere low on Maslow's hierarchy? Like where you'd typically find a pre-schooler? Oh well, It's their life to lead. Fortunately they make alot of noise so they're easy to avoid.

J. Goff said...

What I said over at QT:

Then the question, one presumes, will be whether you will have a person at the door with a questionnaire. She who would cross the Bridge to Woman-Space must answer me these questions three, ere the other side she see.

Dan L-K said...

Yanno, Shyamalan's The Village gets a way worse rap than it actually deserves.

belledame222 said...


Daisy said...

These people disgust me. What are they so worried about? How many transpeople are there in the world, 0.003% ? Good lord, you'd think they were streaming in the gates, OMG, STOP THE TRANNIES!!!!!!!! STOP THEM, I SAY!!!!!!

All out of proportion.

But then, bigotry focusing on one group, usually is obsessive and crazy, the way they are.

GallingGalla said...

Oh no, Daisy, see, it's a VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM.

I think that more recent estimates are that there's probably closer to 0.1% of the population that are trans (though I've seen estimates as high as 0.25%).

So, that means that at MWMF, where the attendance is typically 4,000 to 6,000, there might be ZOMG!!!! 4 - 6 trans women, and maybe 2 or 3 will be out. AKKKKKHKHKH!!!! Womyn the battle stations!!! Huge invasion!!!! DANGER, LISA VOGEL, DANGER!!!!12345!!!eleventytwelve!!!!

Sounds like a huge invasion to me.

Geez, why not just listen to Maia and let us in, and if anybody - *anybody* - is an asshole, kick them out.

Yeah, I know, my comments are getting awfully redundant, but I can't help myself.

Tom Nolan said...

Yanno, Shyamalan's The Village gets a way worse rap than it actually deserves

And "Batman and Robin" - what a neglected masterpiece that is. It has everything: high-speed action, groovy costumes, gigantic, brightly coloured sets, an all-star cast, just everything. And people do nothing but mock it and complain about Schwarzenegger's accent. It didn't win an Oscar in any category, I don't think it was even nominated. There's no justice in Hollywood.

Nick Kiddle said...

Womyn the battle stations!!!

I must be an evil person, because I laughed out loud at that.

belledame222 said...

ahahaha, Tom.

Yeah, sorry, MNS--well, I didn't see "The Village." I saw "The Soggy Nixie" or whatever it was called. Well, I saw the first half an hour or so. Then my own intestines sent me a memo explaining that if I didn't get up and go RIGHT NOW they'd leap out and throttle me.

So I went.

Nearly killed me, because it was during the blackout whatever summer it was and I had no air conditioner.

but then I went to sit in on the rest of some movie I'd already seen instead, and all was wellish.

B&R was -also- one of the few movies I've ever actually walked out of. Oy, that was wretched.

belledame222 said...

Geez, why not just listen to Maia and let us in, and if anybody - *anybody* - is an asshole, kick them out.

I am starting to conclude that the answer to -that- one is, because the people in charge of making such decisions are not exactly real good at distinguishing the wheat from the assholes, just using personality/character/behavior as a basis. And that, well, there are reasons for this.

belledame222 said...

..actually, what I really keep thinking of is the Twilight Zone episode, "The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street."

belledame222 said...

back to the asshole-detecting capabilities for just a sec: I mean, here's my question, okay: if Renee/Lynn/whosis hadn't turned out to be not "female-born," how long would it have taken that lot to figure out that she was an abusive asshole, or would they have spent much, much longer trying to "process" shit between her and the woman a third her age she was abusing, because gosh darn it they're both -women- after all, surely...

Because, I read the mess of that on the MWMF cache, the entire dysfunction relationship playing itself out right there, and I had to say, that was one of the few times I thought Heart was right on: she told the younger woman to get the hell out, people have her back, don't look back.

And eventually she went, I take it.

But...and with Heart's encouragement, it seemed like she ended up basically blaming R's transness for her being an abusive asshole.

Which is really terrific not only for all future dealings with other transfolk who -aren't- manipulative sociopaths, (I mean ffs R's such a mess she won't even -admit- that she's trans as such) but for, again, determining that Something Is Wrong With This Picture when you -don't- have a marker as clear as
"this person bears the scent of the other nest, cast 'em out."

Dan L-K said...

Belle, I actually wasn't being random with that. Go rent The Village. Srsly. Do everything you can to put out of your mind how awful everyone says it's supposed to be. It is entirely relevant to the discussion at hand, but to say more would be to divulge one spoiler too many.

belledame222 said...

No, I know what it's about, spoilersnall, I mean I think I get why you'd want me to see it, in this context. Maybe someday.

I did like the first one he did, the one with Bruce Willis and the creepy little kid (whatever happened to him, anyway?) That other one, gods. and no, I went in with a relatively open mind, but...oh sweetlordies I found that painful. I understand mileage varies, with some of my pals, and, well...'scool.

I gotta say, possibly unrelated to how unwatchable I found that, subsequent readings of interviews with the guy and such made him sound like a right plonker.

But anyway. How the hell are you?

Dan L-K said...

Ah, gotcha. It's probably worth watching even if you know the Big Secret (Sixth Sense was for me, after some asshole on the local radio spoiled it while it was still in theaters); it might not tell you anything you don't know, but it's a very interesting meditation on the idea that communities formed out of the best of intentions (and out of very real pain and trauma) can fail their members, not to mention vairag zbafgref va beqre gb xrrc gur bhgfvqr ng onl.

Elsewhere in the popcult, the quote I've been most thinking of reading your last few posts on this subject is this one:

"Sealed inside your casing. Not feeling anything... ever... from birth to death, locked inside a cold metal cage. Completely alone. And that explains your voice. No wonder you scream."

belledame222 said...

-thud- dude!! a fellow Whovian? I've gotten totally addicted this past six months or so...

belledame222 said...

and yeah, I've pondered that particular quote as well a few times wrt shit like this. awesome.

belledame222 said...

yeah, Sixth Sense, thanks. I swear I'm losing my mind lately, I can't remember the names for anything. Even Bruce Fuckin Willis was tolerable in it.

Whatever happened to that kid, anyway? He was another of those child/young actors that the first time you see them you're like, "wow! what a talented little kid!" and then the next few times you gradually start thinking 1) getting a bit overplayed 2) actually, kid's kindof creepy 3) where's W.C. Fields when you need him?

well, anyway, I was...

Dan L-K said...

I somehow neglected to leave a "One of us! One of us!" comment back when I saw your DW post a while back. Blame my midwinter depression. But, yes, among the Whofen; me and Spyder both, actually, which is why I got a Christmas card with a Dalek on it this year, and a TARDIS pin for my snappy fedora. (Hey, some people are into NASCAR...)

Dw3t-Hthr said...

The funny thing for me about these people is that they're, like, distilled essence of the background to my personal gender dysphoria.


... I'm kinda like that ...


... oh, ow ...


... until they notice me ...

... shit, gotta run, where can I drop this 'woman' thing so that they don't eat me alive when they catch me with it ...

Alon Levy said...

Just one small nitpick: it's likely that absent the cis only rule, trans women would be overrepresented at Michfest. The women who go to such events are likely to be those who have experienced discrimination or who have off-mainstream sexualities; trans women are far likelier than cis women to be in either group.

belledame222 said...

shrug. they're still not exactly going to be more than a miniscule fraction of the 7,000 or so annual attendees.

and again: so the fuck what? It only matters if you think they're really sssssneeaky MEN, precious, who do not in fact have the same reasons for being there as every other woman (enjoy being around other women, listen to the music, eat nutloaf, sleep in a bag on a pad on a rock, get eaten by mosquitos, etc.)

Cassandra Says said...

The thing that amuses me about all this is, how do these people expect to enact any sort of social change while only being willing to interact with people exactly like themselves? What are they proposing to do with everyone else? Are they envisioning some sort of radfem Rapture in which the men and the transfolk and the sex poxes and the women who just aren't particularly interested and...well, 99% of everyone really, just vanish? In a puff of smoke for full dramatic effect?

belledame222 said...

oh, that's easy, it was at Debs' place:

'm not going to take credit for the Radical Feminist Conference idea, because it is something many women have wanted for a long time, but now it is Out There, and it is going to happen, and, if we have our way, it will happen every year, and we will grow in numbers and get louder and louder, and stronger and more demanding until we drown out any 'what about the men' or 'but I like my porn' bullshit people throw at us. These things will happen regardless of what anybody outside of radical feminism thinks about it, these things will happen even if the patriarchy and the ridiculous patriarchy-pleasing "feminists" ignore us and belittle us, and speak about us as though we should be extinct. These things will happen, somehow, despite the world-changing presence of that MRA's wet dream the "sex-positive feminist", and despite the women-murdering men, and despite the 95% of rapists who get away with it. We are not going to shut up and go away...

"if we have our way," "somehow," " we will grow in numbers and get louder and louder, and stronger and more demanding until we drown [any opposition] out"


Daisy said...

I never learned to properly do trackbacks, so consider this one!

Feminist update: the transgender wars rage on!

Anonymous said...

情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,按摩棒,跳蛋,充氣娃娃,免費A片,AV女優,美女視訊,情色交友,免費AV,色情網站,辣妹視訊,美女交友,色情影片,成人影片,成人網站,A片,H漫,18成人,成人圖片,成人漫畫,情色網,日本A片,免費A片下載,性愛,A片,色情,成人,做愛,情色文學,A片下載,色情遊戲,色情影片,色情聊天室,情色電影,免費視訊,免費視訊聊天,免費視訊聊天室,一葉情貼圖片區,情色,情色視訊,免費成人影片,視訊交友,視訊聊天,視訊聊天室,言情小說,愛情小說,AIO,AV片,A漫,av dvd,聊天室,自拍,情色論壇,視訊美女,AV成人網,色情A片,情趣用品,A片,免費A片,AV女優,美女視訊,情色交友,色情網站,免費AV,辣妹視訊,美女交友,色情影片,成人網站,H漫,18成人,成人圖片,成人漫畫,成人影片,情色網,sex,情趣用品,A片,免費A片,日本A片,A片下載,線上A片,成人電影,嘟嘟成人網,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,微風成人區,成人文章,成人影城,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,臺灣情色網,色情,情色電影,色情遊戲,嘟嘟情人色網,麗的色遊戲,情色論壇,色情網站,一葉情貼圖片區,做愛,性愛,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,視訊聊天室,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,美女交友,做愛影片,情境坊歡愉用品,情趣用品,情人節禮物,情惑用品性易購