Monday, March 17, 2008

Still more people unclear on the motherfucking concept

I reject your term of so-called transphobia! Especially as applies to me! Who's afraid of the big bad transpeople then! Just because I don't want to share my space with them or accept them as who they say they are! I'm the one who's really being discriminated against! My ideology and/or non-trans status is totally equivalent to being transgendered! (p.s. they could choose to be like me if they -really wanted to-, and in any case, they -should-)

I reject your term of so-called homophobia! Especially as applies to me! Who's afraid of the big bad homos then! Just because I don't want to have to look at them engaging in the same damn acts I do in public or think they should be able to adopt children! I'm the one who's really being discriminated against! My ideology and/or heterosexuality is totally equivalent to being homosexual! (p.s. they could choose to be like me if they -really wanted to-, and in any case, they -should-)

How odd, that a "radical feminist" and a reactionary Catholic liberal-bashing self-ID'd "Reagan Republican" man who is, let's be clear, not at all bigoted, manage to sound, oh so very fucking alike.

and yes, I bloody well am qualified to make that assertion.

p.s. did I mention the part about go fuck yourself?

p.p.s. come in here, try to push that medieval Janice Raymond shite about how no really, it's -totally different- because in fact transpeople are a sinist0r creation of the Patriarchy to eliminate lesbianism, you are in fact a Friend of the Lesbians, hell, are one yourself (most likely without any of that disgusting male-identified desire for other women) or, you know, you will be some day as soon as you finally can clear those penii out of your gaze or decide to divorce your third husband or at least give up his motherfucking name or stop mentally going "ew, icky" at the thought of actually going down on a woman or whatever it is that's holding you back; and so help me, I will chew on your eyes.

on edit: also see this post at Questioning Transphobia


Jay said...

I've been lurking here for a while, but have felt too shy to comment. I wish I could write (and rant) like you.

The only thing I can currently bring to the table is a giant LOL - "So help me, I will chew on your eyes".

You gotta laugh during this kind of "debate", otherwise you cry...

Evn said...

The chewing of eyes does let the sunshine in...

ArrogantWorm said...

You've been on a roll lately. Gotta love the comparisons, the irony drips from the monitor.

Emily said...

Who needs straw arguments when you actually have assholes like these hanging around?

So vile.

Out Loud said...

I'm so done with this crap. Its driving me crazy. I belive in radical feminism, I really do, but this isnt it. Seriously I'm about to get excomunicated from the "radfem" comunity because I am "pro-trans" (which is a phrase I hate.)

Daisy said...

Out loud, nothing to fear, we're good company! Nice making your acquaintance.

Run, run, before the fumes cause irreversible damage.

Another pro-trans radfem excommunicant,

Daisy said...

Great writing, Belle--as AW said, you rock these days particularly!

(Hey! Sorry for serial commenting!)

belledame222 said...

welcome, jay and out loud

(Hey! Sorry for serial commenting!)


Lisa Harney said...

Jay, are you the same Jay who has posted to my blog?

Thanks for posting this, belledame. It's interesting how bigoted people will try to deconstruct the language itself to prove they're not really bigots.

soopermouse said...

Ya know, I was thinking about this shit. One of my transgirl friends was talking to me about this "eliminating of the lesbians by turning them into men and eliminating the gay men by turning them into women" , and it struck me

Dude, everybody has a right to do whatever the fuck they desire with their own bodies. Asking that someone puts their problems on hold so that they fit your quota of lesbians or gay men or whatnot is stupid and intrusive.

Living with gender dysphoria or whatever the hell they call it nowadays is bad. It's painful and soulkilling and suicidal.

What fucking decent person would ask someone else to live in that state just so that they felt more comfortable?

Would anyone tell me to not go get my breast reconstructed after breast cancer because it made the other cancer survivors feel bad?
( Oh wait, Twisty did that. Nvm)

it's still fucking stupid.

Anthony Kennerson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anthony Kennerson said...

Oh...but the comments section from the peanut gallery to pisaquaririnse are even better than the original:

The kicker would be of course, demanding entry into transwoman spaces. After all, they consider themselves “women, just like us” — so what right do they have to exclude us? -- Stormy

After all, we can't allow THEM into OUR spaces without converting them to OUR beliefs...but we can invade THEIR spaces under the mission of "radical feminism".

Janice Raymond suffers from the same level of ‘critique’ as Andrea Dworkin- ridiculously hateful screeds by those who have never read anything by either of them, and never intend to. Shame on them. Those muppets should actually read Raymond and Dworkin… and get a spine and a clue. -- Laurelin

Yeah....because trans-baiting FTM transsexuals as men invading cisgendered female spaces and trolling women's bathrooms to rape "real" women is truly THE progressive critique.....I guess that all those who have read Raymond and see her as nothing more as a sex fascist aren't seeing the same thing they are..because we're brainwashed, unlike them???

Same crap, same goose, stinks just as much.


belledame222 said...

Dude, everybody has a right to do whatever the fuck they desire with their own bodies.

And this is the part that I will never understand: okay, if you're a rightwing reactionary, at least it's sort of consistent: your body belongs to God, or whatever, you don't have that right.

But um, if you're a feminist, generally a belief in reproductive rights is part of the drill, yes?

As in, "my body belongs to me." Ring a bell? THe dreaded -choice-, even.

So...why is "choice" paramount when it comes to abortion or other reproductive rights, but goes out the window when it come to gender reassignment, (consensual) sex life, or even personal adornment? Anyone? Bueller?

belledame222 said...

and yeah, I DID read anything by Janice Raymond, that's -why- I loathe her as unreservedly as I do, she's horrible.

Dworkin's more complicated, maybe, and tbh I don't remember what if anything she had to say about transfolk; but who the fuck brought her up just now anyway?

Raymond. "The Transsexual Empire." Not to mention a bunch of her shorter lunacies on other subjects. Please to be explaining how she's -not- a frothing bigot, thanks. No, wait, on second thought, don't bother, I'm sure it'd sound a lot like the post linked in the O.P., and anyway Blanche has probably expressed most of the arguments...yeah, I read them. Which is more than I do believe is true for most of this lot whinging about "pomo," "sex pox," butch-femme roleplaying, BDSM, and so on; they don't even usually know the names of any actual authors. Hey, Laurelin, ever read any Julia Serrano? Patrick Califia? Leslie Feinberg? Minnie Bruce Pratt, even?

Amber Hollibaugh? Laura Kipnis? Dorothy Allison, even, I don't mean "Bastard out of Carolina," that'd be right up your alley, I mean "Skin?"

Heard of them? No? Gee.

And Susie Bright, you know, she read and -admired- Dworkin; d'you think Dworkin returned the favor? Didn't admire MacKinnon, but again, she -read- her; think she ever returned the favor?

Drakyn said...

I think you mean MTF transsexuals, since FTM folks are often men and some do actually go into women's-space. ^.^
And I did read Raymond and Greer, the sections up on the Vancouver Rape relief site actually.

belledame222 said...

...Twisty did WHAT.

You know, nothing should surprise me anymore, and I knew how completely self-centered she is (if it's good enough for Twisty, it's good enough for everyone else), but, damn, that's vile, I'm sorry.

My mom had reconstruction too. She'd just been through a terrifying and painful year's worth of treatment and uncertainty, and that was what was going to make her feel happier. I'm not fucking going to argue her out of it. I'm not going to argue Twisty or anyone else out of -not- reconstructing -either-; but HELLO, why is the whole "you: not me" concept so very difficult for so many people, why?

SunflowerP said...

I fancy the key is in "gender abolitionist" - I can't be certain; Googling got me four pages of people's OKStupid quiz results (damn quiz-memes) so I'm relying on the quiz's definition.

I lean that direction myself, though I prefer "anti-essentialist" to refer to that aspect of my views. And, yeah, that's where I've struggled in understanding transsexualism: to what extent is it a reflection of gender roles being taken as gender identity?

That struggle didn't lead me to vilify TSes, or have even a slight preference for excluding MTFs from women's spaces; what it led me to do was listen closely to TSes' stories.

So I have to agree that "transphobia" is the word. The vilification and exclusion, coupled with assumptions about TSes' motivations that are not borne out by TSes' own accounts, screams "threat-reflex".

(The obligatory - well, I think it's polite - "how I got here" intro: I was reading older posts at Zombie Z's, and came on a comment-discussion in which you, Thene, and L. explored the relationship between radfeminism and sex-pos feminism. That settled it; you belonged on my "regular reads" list.)


belledame222 said...

welcome, Sunflower.

soopermouse said...

If you remember, Twisty had a long hard "I don't get reconstruction work and here are my mastectomy scars" phase almost at the same time I had my surgery.

Last year I posted on my own blog about how I needed to get the reconstruction surgery ASAP, about how I hated the scar and How every look I took at myself without clothes reminded me that I carried the same disease in my genes that had killed my mother and aunts.

When I got everything sorted and the clean bill of health ( thank Dog it was caught fast so it didnt actually develop into stage 2 or 3) I got a loan to have the surgery done privately ( 8 months waiting list on the NHS was an unbearable perspective). I posted about it at my blog, and someone linked the post to Twisty... who lambasted me for choosing to have the scar removed and the breast reconstructed.

It never seemed to occur to her that maybe I didn't do it to obey a patriarchal standard, but to be able to continue with my life. I don't want to be ageist or anything, but maybe, just maybe, life for a 32 year old bisexual woman is a bit different than life for a 50 something rich lesbian. maybe I did want to continue to have a sex life and to just not feel dread each time I looked at myself naked.

It is the same attitude I have seen regarding Trans girls. For fuck's sakes, everyone has the rigth to identify with whatever gender they desire. If we get to say that heteronormativity is bad, then why oh why would we figth against one set fnorms just to impose another set?
The hypocrisy

GallingGalla (fka RachelPhilPa) said...

Part of a comment that I left over at Lisa's place (on a slightly earlier post, look for comment 23):

If a goal of radical feminism is to eliminate the concept of gender from society - and that is a goal that I actually agree with - why do some radical feminists expend so much energy in creating women-only space and rigidly defining who counts as a woman...?

To which I'll add "... often with extreme violence, verbal and physical".

I actually agree with a hell of a lot of radical feminist positions, but until I get an answer to the above question that is actually rational and doesn't deny the self-identity of trans folk, I'll be damned reluctant to identify myself as radical.

Oh, what the hell, to entertain the transphobes reading this comment ... *I hereby identify as a radical feminist trans woman*

BTW, Belledamme, you've done one of the best takedowns of transphobic radfems I've seen in a long time.

belledame222 said...

oh hey, thanks GG (didn't realize you were also rachel philpa)

belledame222 said...

I know at least one woman who at least -was-, may still be (I should check in to see what she's up to) self-ID'd as a radical feminist, and she's transgendered AND a sex worker, pro-sub, no less. and you know what, I totally buy it. Her philosophy certainly goes with -my- concept of radical feminism (kind of libertarian-anarcho, possibly goddessy, among other things)

she doesn't usually enter these kinds of discussions with the Dworkin/Jeffreys/Raymond types, though; can't say I blame her for not being -that- masochistic.

Purtek said...

Here's what I don't get about that rant. She's expecting sympathy because she can't "be herself" and express what she feels to be the truth in contexts where transpeople are present. She even says:

But what I am arguing for and about smacks against what transpersons feel is their reality and experience. In recognizing their daily trauma and very real oppression they receive I don’t have the *guts* to sit in a room and speak the truths I feel about gender with a transperson.

Which translates, to me, as "When I have to be aware of the reality of somebody else's experience of gender, it forces me to call my opinions into question, and that's not very much fun."

And...I'm supposed to sympathize with this because...why? I'm supposed to see this as somehow different from straight white men refusing to let (*gasp*) differing perspectives into the

belledame222 said...


unsurprisingly, the latest would seem to be that she's overwhelmed by all the responses and is feeling outnumbered, retreating.

Tom said...

This is maddening. Where's the similarity between the concepts of transphobia and claustrophobia? The words rhyme, that's about it.

I could just as well post that nobody yells insults at elevators, so claustrophobia doesn't exist.

It's horrible.

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