Saturday, June 28, 2008

"You're the vulgarian, you fuck."

Okay, I know this is cheap as all hell, it's Satsuma for fuck's sake, but still, marvel at it, really:

http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/2008/04/21/on-the-pornography-panel-debate-at-william-mary-college-in-support-of-samantha-berg/#comment-16199

[surprise]

Ultimately, I believe pornography is about lack of imagination and dehumanization. It really shouldn’t be a debate at all, but people seem to have an incredible lack of sense delving into what degrades and dehumanizes women. Gay men have become so corrupted by this garbage that they live in a lost world all the time.

Young women take on the worst of this, and so vulgarity pervades even this site. Think what most obscenity really is about: insulting the honor of women. That and a rape language culture.

I pretty much make it a policy to let people know that if they are into porn, do drugs or act in vulgar ways, I won’t deal with them. Look for people who care about others, leave behind the vulgar and the clueless. Make it a point to look at art, and to know the difference between what is art and what is pornography.

In a degraded media saturated culture, where violence on TV is common, where blogs are filled with woman hating propaganda, it is about finding what is good in the world.

I find that the arts are a wonderful way to see all that is best and beautiful. Listen to great music often, go to museums, have conversations with people who strive to learn and grow, and encourage all people to share in the beauty of culture that has been around for hundreds of years. There is an antidote to the vulgar; the sound of Vivaldi, an incredible sunset or an Emily Dickinson poem… Turn off the cell phones, turn off the T.V., and savor the conversation and friendship of people who are serious and committed to this life of the mind, and you’ll help defeat pornography.

Pursue the good, and in every way your life will be amazing, sink down to the bad, and bit by bit year after year your character will become degraded. Like the picture of Dorian Grey, this reveals itself in time, unfortunately when it is too late.

Too bad the only anti-porn advocates I ever hear on the radio are right wing christian men. In fact, that is the only time ever that I hear men condemn pornography publically. Hmmm…. what side are men really on?


It is a gift. A -gift-. You can't parody this shit.

In fact, I'm sorely tempted to go along with what appears to be a not unpopular thesis among fellow rubberneckers and speculate that this has all been a very long and elaborate deadpan gag, the Satsuma character, one that would put Andy Kaufman to shame. And I mean, anything's still possible.

On the other hand, well, from slightly more...known...quantities, you also have...well.

Love will drive out the demonic forces of S/M and porn. [--Satsuma]

I believe this with all my heart.

...I agree with you re mental illness in the SM culture and also ::::zipping into flame-retardant suit::: among transpersons, i.e., MTFs that hang around lesbian groups/venues. Someone I very much respect who has done very fine work on transgender issues, a radical/lesbian feminist, said a while back she thinks that quite often, doctors, psychologists, etc. encourage “transitioning” because it’s something concrete that they *can* do, but that it doesn’t help, because again, so often these are not really gender issues the person has, these are issues of mental illness, and as some of us have seen, transitioning is no cure for mental illness.

... by womensspace [aka Heart] February 19, 2008 at 9:22 pm


Isn't she great, folks? Let's give 'er a big round of applause (she seems to be sorely in need of one, after all). Clap, clap.

A bit more wisdom from our favorite wacky l'il citrus fruit to round off with, since she would graciously, if inadvertently, seem to be answering the question I posed here, to wit:

"And I want to know, from feminists, lesbians included: exactly how it is that you justify "being transgendered is an ideology/sickness/perversion/trend" when these are EXACTLY the arguments, but EXACTLY, used by homophobes*.

So, here's one theory:

Remember lesbian porn is viewed by straight men, and this porn addiction will hurt straight women. Straight men force women into sex acts with other women because of this. You will be humiliated by straight men if you don’t stand solid against the entire range of pornographic evil, and it is evil! Sometimes evangelical christians are on to evil, and they have taught us to fight it. It is demonic, and it will destroy the character of women, whether they know it or not.

So this is a fight we can all be in, and we need to be honest about how women are made mentally ill by male sexual colonization. We need to have space for women who have never ever had sex with men — this is a great power women have had througout history, and we overlook the greatness of this. We should celebrate these power women who have kept their bodies free of rape that is ALL SEX with men. Sex with men is rape, whether women want to admit it or not, if women have to rely on it to get fed or taken care of.

MTF lesbians are invading women’s space both straight and lesbian all over the place. Straight women won’t have their spaces either if this persists.

So we can work together to eliminate this preditory assault by the newest form of patriarchal invasion of women’s selves, or we can continue to pretend that lesbians don’t exist, or that we are there to support straight women at our own expense.

...we are the old soldiers who know who we are and where we came from.
We don’t lose sleep over “gender queer” and all the tiresome sex obsessed world that has become more and more the public face of lesbians in big cities.

If we can’t agree on the freedom for women to define and create groups that meet their needs as oppressed minorities, then what’s the point of it all?

Transwomen can aid the cause of women, by doing the anti-rape work, by having marches supporting women’s rights etc. I say, just do the work. But if you harass women at Michfest, or butt into young lesbian coming out groups with porno-talk, and S & M, and just vulgar yuck that I associate with male banter, well then I have a real problem with this.


Clear (eyed gaze) now?

32 comments:

SnowdropExplodes said...

I wish I could believe that was all parody.

I've contemplated before that many radical feminists' discourse seems to sound like political extremism and fundamentalism, but this is a different kettle of fish entirely.

What this resembles most of all, to my mind, are passages in the Qur'an dedicated to telling people what they must do, or else they will face "a severe chastisement in the Fire".

Lady S said...

Wait...is she saying we should be following the lead of evangelical christians.

'cos that's a fucking great idea. Those women lovers them.

jfpbookworm said...

Make it a point to look at art, and to know the difference between what is art and what is pornography.

In a degraded media saturated culture, where violence on TV is common, where blogs are filled with woman hating propaganda, it is about finding what is good in the world.

I find that the arts are a wonderful way to see all that is best and beautiful. Listen to great music often, go to museums, have conversations with people who strive to learn and grow, and encourage all people to share in the beauty of culture that has been around for hundreds of years. There is an antidote to the vulgar; the sound of Vivaldi, an incredible sunset or an Emily Dickinson poem...


This quote made a metaphorical light bulb go off over my head. She's making a point here, it's just not the one she thinks it is. She's identifying herself as to sexuality what Harold Bloom is to literature, making the claim there are things that are great and good, and things that are debased and vulgar, and the distinction has absolutely nothing to do with actual people, what they do and what they like.

Personally, I'll stick to the boom de yada, boom de yada approach to life. While the critical eye is good and often necessary, if you can't see the good and beautiful in something, the problem lies with you.

belledame222 said...

You know...the more I'm looking at that "demonic" shit, the more I am leaning back toward suspicion that she really has been winding Heart up all this time. I--it's -really- hard to tell, and I'm honestly not even sure which would be more disturbing (for real/troll). I mean, that's a LOT of effort for a troll. But...she's just -too perfect-.

Trinity said...

"This quote made a metaphorical light bulb go off over my head. She's making a point here, it's just not the one she thinks it is. She's identifying herself as to sexuality what Harold Bloom is to literature, making the claim there are things that are great and good, and things that are debased and vulgar, and the distinction has absolutely nothing to do with actual people, what they do and what they like."

Yep. It's elitism v. populism, dressed up as Protecting The Wimmin.

Sara E Anderson said...

Can I get lesbian glasses to correct my vision?

thene said...

Wow. I'm amazed anyone can take 'women must NOT BE VULGAR like those awful little BOYS' and pretend it's feminism. Satsuma deserves a medal.

I'm honestly lost about this 'invading women's spaces' crap. Where do you commonly find all/damn-near-all-women spaces? Nunneries, shoeshops, textile factories, nursing schools, beauty pageants? Outside of shelters, I can't think of an inch of 'women's space' that warrants feminist defending - ripping up is more like.

BeccaTheCyborg said...

That has to be an incredibly elaborate attempt to troll reality.

Because otherwise, the claim that we can only free women by following the lead of fundies is the most absurd thing ever written. Worse than TimeCube. Worse than a Dr. Bronner's bottle.

The dumb actually made my sinuses clear.

belledame222 said...

thene: why, Michfest, of course. and smaller imitators. and some terribly earnest meetings in various rented rooms hither and yon.

Trinity said...

"My own sense is that like most of us, young women involved in sadomasochism and the kinds of stuff you’ve described and depicted here, allecto, whether they are lesbian or het, will ultimately question it, regret it and leave it behind in the radicalization process most women go through under male heterosupremacy. But you’re right, in the meantime, young women, whether lesbian, het or bi, are imitating what they have learned and seen over most of their lives."

.....

I CAN HAZ MOAR INDOCTRINATIONS PLZ?

IZ NOT WERKIN YETZ

NEEDZ MOAR RADICALIZASHUN

GallingGalla said...

Y'know, if it wasn't for the inclusion of this junk in CoF, I'd just be snorting and snerking my ass off. Troll or for realz, these people are just FUNNY.

Trinity said...

Riffing off JFP: I think, in addition to being elitism/narcissism/fundamentalism, it's also got elements of culture shock. The "pornified"/"male-acting" lesbians and trans women simply *do not act* like the proper lesbians of these women's day. Or at least, that's the myth they're telling themselves -- I'm not sure how many of them really *were* around in 1970whatever.

But it's got so much of the basic whine of the elders dismayed at the ill manners of the New Generation. "Here WE were making the world SAFE for a non-sexual, sisterly lesbianity, and they went and became QUEERS! Do you know, they're even FRANK about SEX! My my my!"

I almost expect sermons on the motions of Dyke Elvis' hips.

Renegade Evolution said...

she really is special, isn't she?

Pfft.

fastlad said...

Dear Diary: Blimey, I didn't know I was living in The Lost World. Apparently all us gayers are. Harrumph always the last to know, me.

And I haven't seen any dinosaurs yet but I live in hope.

And so far, no tow headed Adonis in a loin cloth to sweep me up, neither.

If only I had acknowledged the error of me ways sooner. I'm off now in search of a coconut. Ta-ra.

Anthony Kennerson said...

Oh, but this woman is too much:

[...] Make it a point to look at art, and to know the difference between what is art and what is pornography.

Ahhhh...OK.....so would a statue of Naked Justice with her naked breast showing be considered art or porn, Sats?? After all, we can't have those evol men gazing at anything that might in the slightest elicit evil lust, shall we???

[From Heart(less)][...] I believe this with all my heart.

...I agree with you re mental illness in the SM culture and also ::::zipping into flame-retardant suit::: among transpersons, i.e., MTFs that hang around lesbian groups/venues. Someone I very much respect who has done very fine work on transgender issues, a radical/lesbian feminist, said a while back she thinks that quite often, doctors, psychologists, etc. encourage “transitioning” because it’s something concrete that they *can* do, but that it doesn’t help, because again, so often these are not really gender issues the person has, these are issues of mental illness, and as some of us have seen, transitioning is no cure for mental illness.


Ah, yes...if you can't accept another person's individual sexual persuasion as equal to yours, just break out the "mental illness" card. Spoken like a true fundamentalist Christian-turned-radicalfeminist...right, Heart??

Remember lesbian porn is viewed by straight men, and this porn addiction will hurt straight women. Straight men force women into sex acts with other women because of this. You will be humiliated by straight men if you don’t stand solid against the entire range of pornographic evil, and it is evil! Sometimes evangelical christians are on to evil, and they have taught us to fight it. It is demonic, and it will destroy the character of women, whether they know it or not.

Hmmm...I always thought that "lesbian porn" was viewed mostly by...well, you know.....OTHER LESBIAN WOMEN?!?! And that the girl/girl sex featured in more conventional mainstream het porn didn't represent "real lesbian" sexuality according to the likes of them???? I guess that Susie Bright really was a male agent when she helped founded On Our Backs back in the day, right???

And finally:

MTF lesbians are invading women’s space both straight and lesbian all over the place. Straight women won’t have their spaces either if this persists.

So we can work together to eliminate this preditory assault by the newest form of patriarchal invasion of women’s selves, or we can continue to pretend that lesbians don’t exist, or that we are there to support straight women at our own expense.


So...here we go again with the MTF transsexuals attempting to despoil the pure, pristine "woman-identified woman" world...where's Luckynkl when you need her to protect "real women" from such a threat of bathroom rape from these "men"???

Oh....and that should be "predatory"....with an "a", not an "i".

Vulgarians, indeed.


Anthony

Lisa Harney said...

I just learned that Satsuma is a common fictional trope.

The page above optimistically says that feminists like Satsuma don't exist.

rosmar said...

I wish they didn't exist.

You all are hilarious, by the way.

belledame222 said...

I miss you, rosmar...

belledame222 said...

The funny thing is that the grotesque caricature that Heart there is wringing her dainty little hands over is (I think) based on at least one actual person as well (Renee/Rainsong/etc/etc). I have about as much sympathy for Heart there as I would for, oh, I dunno, some homophobic preacher who happened to have had a predatory, borderline-pedophile, crystal-meth-slamming, all around deeply fucked up gay male acquaintance, who took said acquaintance as his template for What's Wrong With Teh Gay rather than What's Wrong With This Fucked Up Person And By The Way At Least Some Of His Fucked-Uppedness (if certainly not all) Can Be Directly Traced To Internalizing Attitudes Like Yours.

and Satsuma, need it be said, is not representative of women (hi, MRA's) lesbians, feminists, or even radical feminists;

and the London Underground is -still- not a political movement.

belledame222 said...

but yeah, I've been thinking of patenting some kind of "__'s Law," to wit:

"For every 'straw person' there is at least one animate scarecrow shuffling about -somewhere-."

belledame222 said...

fastlad: der, get with the program. didn't you realize I was secretly trying to save you all this time? o what a giveaway.

troubleinchina said...

who took said acquaintance as his template for What's Wrong With Teh Gay rather than What's Wrong With This Fucked Up Person And By The Way At Least Some Of His Fucked-Uppedness (if certainly not all) Can Be Directly Traced To Internalizing Attitudes Like Yours.

Oh wow, Belledame, I didn't realise you had met my father, who is constantly convinced that gay folks are checking out his ass because of it. So.very.strange.

Alon Levy said...

So we can work together to eliminate this preditory assault

But Preditors predit everyone, not just women...

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Kristen said...

Anthony,

Ah, yes...if you can't accept another person's individual sexual persuasion as equal to yours, just break out the "mental illness" card. Spoken like a true fundamentalist Christian-turned-radicalfeminist...right, Heart??

Exactly. This shit and fundamentalism come from the same place...the need to know rather than question. The need to proclaim rather than listen. Scary shit when you look at it.

antiprincess said...

so...it's more ladylike, somehow, to be queer?

I thought it was unladylike. wow. so confusing.

the fruitfemme said...

Wow, belledame, my brain hurts after reading that. Thank goddess she didn't say anything about fruit porn! I'd hate to be one of the lost ones.

Now if you excuse me, I need to go tie up some fruit. . .

belledame222 said...

you frugivorian hussy!

Kim said...

Oh fer ...

I swear, Anna just puked the most diminutive but considerably gooey little pile of cat food on the carpet while I reading this: hork hork blet!

She looks happy now, tho, I'll say.

I should take a picture of her depiction of Teh Arts and send it to Satsuma.

belledame222 said...

cat puke can be remarkably expressive that way.

Brown Shoes said...

"Transwomen can aid the cause of women, by doing the anti-rape work, by having marches supporting women’s rights etc. I say, just do the work. But if you harass women at Michfest, or butt into young lesbian coming out groups with porno-talk, and S & M, and just vulgar yuck that I associate with male banter, well then I have a real problem with this."

That's totally straight out of the fevered rantings of Focus on the Family or some kind of PMRC screed against Sunset Strip rock from 1985 - I'd say something about staring into the abyss but I don't think the conservative religious model horrifies this crowd as much as one would assume.

Brown Shoes said...

"Transwomen can aid the cause of women, by doing the anti-rape work, by having marches supporting women’s rights etc. I say, just do the work. But if you harass women at Michfest, or butt into young lesbian coming out groups with porno-talk, and S & M, and just vulgar yuck that I associate with male banter, well then I have a real problem with this."

That's totally straight out of the fevered rantings of Focus on the Family or some kind of PMRC screed against Sunset Strip rock from 1985 - I'd say something about staring into the abyss but I don't think the conservative religious model horrifies this crowd as much as one would assume.

fastlad said...

Cruelly forgotten Punk Rocks bands of the late 1970's - Just Vulgar Yuck with their seminal pop hit: "I Have A Real Problem With This."

I Have A Real Problem With This
I don't like staring into the abyss
Cos Boys do that and Girls do this
I'll tell you how to follow your bliss
I Have A Real Fucking Problem With This
Yes I Have A Real Fucking Problem With This
Said I Have A Real Fucking Problem With This