Sunday, July 06, 2008

Natalia Antonova asks the "realness" question

to wit, in this instance, "Who's a 'real' woman, anyway?"

more specifically,

How many times have you heard some idiot** say something like, “man, I hate American chicks, might as well go to Thailand/El Salvador/Moldova, that’s where the REAL WOMEN are at.”

Now, we all know what he probably means here - women who are at a similar economic level are not submissive enough, and women who are not are “easier” to deal with. There’s also the fact that a certain woman’s upbringing may make her more “susceptible” to what the man perceives to be submissive status, or else give the appearance of such status.

That’s all pretty much clear, or so I think. What isn’t often clear is the motivation of the “submissive foreign woman” in question. Based on my experience, scenarios vary wildly. A lot of women consider the arrangement a step up, and will tell you to fuck off if you try to lecture them on who to marry and how to carry themselves.

Were you born outside of Donetsk to an emotionally sadistic mother who cleaned hotel rooms and slept with guests for extra cash? Did you have an alcoholic stepfather who tried to bash your face in with a wrench after you refused to blow him? Did your mother then kick you out of the house for “trying to steal [her] man”? If not, you’re probably not going to have a whole lot of authority in the eyes of the eighteen-year-old who just wants a nice, stable life with some aging paramour in Milwaukee...

So what do you do about all of this? I don’t know. I know that until conditions markedly improve in my native Ukraine, people are going to want to get out. Until more men realize that women’s sole purpose isn’t to gratify their sexual and culinary needs, they’re going to seek out the vulnerable among us.

And we will keep on keeping on.

Though if I have any ideas about any of this, it’s to stress that all of us, the rich, the poor, the in-between, the misogynists, the crusaders, the quiet and shy, the loud and abrasive - we are all as “real” as the next person.

I think here, as with the feminism (among others), what happens here is that...well, I dunno, there's a whole comment thread there and I'm not currently up to opining very eloquently or originally. Just: well, yeah, the situation is...grey and complicated. As are people, including women.

**in case you were wondering whether this was a rhetorical question, some lovely examples of said idiots came up in the course of the conversation. f'r instance, as found here,

I salute those men who have gotten the hell out of the feminist matriarchal West, and have managed to find some remaining enjoyment in their lives by going Expat.

...The poor schmuck who dares marry invites the host of Hell upon his head. At any time , for any reason, a wife may “cash out” and strip the man of his assets; and if he has children get child support and alimony in addition to the house and car. Men walk on friggin egg shells in their sexless marriages as the wife manipulates him mercilessly over the barrel. That they flee the country is no surprise.

Worse you do not consider, because of your isolated perspective, that many men do not have sex at all.

or from right there in the thread, for that matter,

“Firstly women from these countries often act a little more ladylike (e.g. avoid swearing, farting, obnoxious - not playful - man-bashing) and traditionally (e.g. support men making the money, and women tending to the home and family, and often more religious).

And secondly women from these countries believe marriage is a lifelong commitment, and certainly don’t use terms like “starter husband” in their native cultures ( A lot of men have heard the horror stories and read the statistics about divorce in America, and want more than just Til-Inconvienence-Do-Us-Part”

...That being said...If a woman cheats, farts, and walks all over her man, that says more about him than it does her.

Doesn't it, just? -poot- oh, excuse me.

The things I learn. So, apparently, if I'd been married traditional, like (and if my husband kept me in line, of course), I'd cease to be flatulent again, EVER? wow, no wonder they want to keep marriage sacrosanct. -poot- goddamit. -urp-

...blimey, this homosexual agenda's more insidious than I thought.

My favorite, though, speaking of, was this one, as ganked from another thread and reposted here:

This string has me in complete disgust! Let me tell you all…all of you feminist, male bashing\hating\demeaning bitches, you are the reason so many American men are looking for (and finding) beautiful , intelligent , talented, warm and loving women abroad …Ukraine and Russia in particular, because they are disgusted with your feminist bullshit! Go to your Gay Pride parade but don’t expect any intelligent and decent man to accompany you !

so, basically,

"I'm NOT going with you to the Gay Pride Parade! I'm going to Russia instead! Because I am an intelligent and decent MAN, and you don't deserve me, you, you LESBIAN!"

I bet he has a great big gub, though.


PhysioProf said...

Well, one thing we certainly ought not to do is blame these women for these choices. 'Cause we know who to blame, and it ain't them!

belledame222 said...



UneFemmePlusCourageuse said...

Oh my God, FARTING? They're so concerned about FARTING? God, what's next? Are we not supposed to poop? Eat? Don't they realize that sex, which they apparently want so much, is also a bodily function? That if you don't fart, gas can build up inside of you and cause a lot of problems (happened to my boyfriend when he was younger)?

But no, we're not supposed to behave like human beings, right? We're just lovely china dolls! Who can cook and clean and fuck to boot!


Yeah, this all pisses me off, but expecting women's bodies to adhere to different needs simply because they're female...yes, that annoys me.

belledame222 said...

bwaaaahahahahaha, he responded:

I’m not sure how you got the impression I have any use for marriage or women who aren’t bi, let alone repressing gays. You could try actually reading posts before going into pigeonhole-and-squawk mode.

And all women fart, just some have the manners to leave the room first or hold it in. I’m a lot pickier than most men, but I think the majority of men would ceteris paribus take classy over trashy any day of the week.

I sez:

Dude. pigeonhole and squawk now, AND farting. Noisy Woman Is Rude Woman. :(

And, no, actually I didn’t accuse you of repressing anyone, and I don’t really give a shit what you do or don’t have any use for; I’m just mocking you for being a pompous dickhead. Sorry for the confusion, really.

but, you know, you get on with your “picky” self, I mean, you know, I’m sure you’ve earned it, what with the Latin and shit.

Brown Shoes said...

I love it anytime someone who isn't a woman/POC/Jew/Muslim/etc. comes along to tell people what defines a "real" woman/POC/Jew/Muslim/etc. and seems to expect people to listen to them. For all that guy's love of Latin phrases (which I never learned in Latin or Philosophy, I feel cheated!) he doesn't seem to understand much about appeals to authority.

Renegade Evolution said...

I feel sorry for the Russian women...

belledame222 said...

hic, hack, hork.

Alon Levy said...

How many times have you heard some idiot** say something like, “man, I hate American chicks, might as well go to Thailand/El Salvador/Moldova, that’s where the REAL WOMEN are at.”

Excluding blog comment threads, none. The only people I remember saying they hate American chicks hate Americans in general.

Mandos said...

By the way, BD222, dinner last week was fabulous, and while I was originally skeptical, the asparagus was a fine idea. Anything soaked in garlic butter and covered in lumps of grated parmesan scores highly on my internal Zagat rating.

And I have this funny "Alon Levy is or may have been nearby" feeling whenever I go home.

belledame222 said...

ah, good, I'm glad I converted you to the asparagus cause. Yes, that was fun, and a very nice dinner, good to see you.

belledame222 said...

AL: I suppose the dudes must get off the Internet at some point...erm. probably?

CrackerLilo said...

I'm thinking of my great-grandmother from Hungary, who married a boy she sorta liked back in the 1910s because he was bound for America and she *hated* the boy her parents had chosen for her. (I don't mean to infantilize, but that was her word, and they were all in their teens.) Grandma's pre-marital advice for my mother included telling her that passing gas is just as natural for women as it is for men, and that she didn't have to hold it in around her husband. Sad to think that some people still need this advice.

Sad also that some people don't understand how damned complicated things can get, too. Sad that a wedding band has more in common with a life preserver than the shape for some women.

Alon Levy said...

Why, Mandos, do you live in New York now? If so, we should definitely exchange emails.

Mandos said...

Alon, I'm here for a few more weeks. mandos aaaaat la-mancha doooot net.