Friday, July 11, 2008

p.s. no, dear Heart,

I really shouldn't bother, but since we're all about lies and the lying liars and all.

She fisks:

Examples of what I’m talking about from the pro-porn/prostitution side about anti-porn/anti-prostitution men:

I find what appears to me at first to be yet another garden variety (as these things go, there aren’t actually THAT many of them I don’t think) male radical feminist blog… Since I’m in the mood to snark, I read and roll my eyes a bit: yeah, your classic: all of 22 years old and teddibly teddibly earnest,

Male radical feminists (note, I don’t think a man can be a feminist or a radical feminist, but I think they can be allies, and the good ones don’t identify as feminists in any event, but whatever) are steretoyped as young (hence naive) and then the diminutive and effeminate “teddibly teddibly earnest”. Mr. Magoo comes to mind, or maybe Stewie on Family Guy.

hetboy dweeb fan[boying]** …creepy and risible in a milquetoast way at best

I mean, how much more unmasculine is it possible to be than to be a hetboy dweeb milquetoast, especially with the “que” spelling?

squeaky clean,

A man cannot be ”squeaky clean” and still be a man. It violates Section 34(b)(9) of the Codes of Manhood. Real men (not the anti-porn/anti-prostitution kind) are sweaty, dirty, stinky and hairy (thus they cannot be “squeaky”, too much hair). Squeaky-clean is for :::shudder::: GIRLS.


Real men, not the anti-porn/prostitution kind, are not articulate. They are strong silent types who brood in their caves, their steely masculine silences interrupted only by the occasional grunt, belch, spit or blowing their noses onto the ground.

nice trimmed fingernails and suchlike,

Everybody knows the hands of any self-respecting man are dirty and rough with filthy fingernails from working under the hoods of 4×4s.

In other words, a man who opposes pornography and prostitution is less than a man and therefore deserves to be treated as women are treated by misogynists, be the misogynists male or female.

**I made ze error when I first wrote that as "fangirling."

This is my quote she's fisking. Without attribution, of course.

I mean, yes, I am DEEPLY invested in preserving REAL MANHOOD, the strong, silent, hairy, truck drivin' kind; isn't that completely obvious from everything I've ever written? And of course, I am all about upholding the gender binary; unlike, oh, say...Heart.

Kevin Aviance salutes the Patriarchy, as indeed do we all

Does it actually -hurt-, all those contortions?

And yes, being nice and cleancut and self-abnegating and -tearfully repentant-: you know, maybe, just maybe, the point -here- being that while it -might- earn you disparagement among the MRA's or even Hell's Angels (oddly enough, none of those are -here-), it -does- tend to make a man more plausible -when posing as a Friend To Abused Women-, don't you think, hm?

"Let's see; who should we pick for RA/earnest anti-porn lecturer/rape crisis counselor, hm? Should it be that degenerate looking man with the battered leather jacket, Harley, and vulgar, coarse language? (Or, for that matter, even the seven foot tall, flamboyantly sexual & clearly male drag queen?) Oh, no no no: he's SCARY, he's -not safe.- Let's go with Kyle here! He seems like such a nice young man; he's polite, soft-spoken, never gets angry, the compleat Boy Scout; why, he wouldn't even hurt a fly."


Kyle Payne, radically unmasculine and Friend To Women, three days after the guilty plea

Ah yes, and while we're at it: let's make sure transgendered people aren't allowed to counsel women, or that trans women be allowed in womens' spaces, ever. Right, some people? They sound like "camp queens," after all; they're -weird- and SCARY, unless they can pass, -maybe-, and -real- women find that traumatizing. For that matter, non-trans women who strip and voluntarily perform in porn and say nasty, angry things, well, they're probably dangerous too, right?


p.s. oh, and yes, absolutely, I am only outraged about Kyle Payne as a roundabout way to make the world safer for ze pr0nz and my patriarchal puppet masters; it couldn't just be that I or Renegade or any of the other nasty, scary, pornified perverts think he's an abusive, still-dangerous piece of shit who needs to be taken down because, you know, he IS?


Yes, technically that was a rhetorical question. Obviously.

And now, off to ask my wall why it's peeling in such an unpleasant manner.

ETA: Thanks for this, from the SAFER blog: Kyle Payne and Screening for Sexual Assault Advocates.


Renegade Evolution said...

Fisking the fisking of the fisk…

Fact- he IS young! 22 or something?

Fact- He is HET (and how is het less masculine than bi or gay, by Pat Standards, of course)

Um, clean? Clean is BAD? Sorry, before I screw a dude, I prefer if he’s showered, thanks…that goes for sitting next to him, going out to dinner with him, falling asleep on the couch with him, and lots of other things too.

Articulate….blah blah. What the hell is she on?

Blah blah blah…


Oh wait, it’s all about Heart, right?

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

And I love porn, don’t you forget it…but hey, I prefer watching and making it with Het, Clean, Articulate guys with nice nails.

Outis said...

Aye, she�s a piece o� work that one is! I cannot believe that she couldn�t lift one of her dainty little fingers to link to somebody in order to get the word out. So much for her making the world a better place.

Belle, allow me to float an idea. What would happen if someone were to print all of our posts and then send them to either the newspaper that is covering the story or the DA�s office? Think it would do any good?

Just a thought.


belledame222 said...

yeah, you know, the fact that I'm cynically noting the dude's nice -respectable- veneer, hence the likelihood of him NOT BEING SUSPECTED OF BEING A RAPIST and further LIKELY TO CHARM A JUDGE AND JURY, let's just pretend we can't quite grasp that, shall we?

But right, okay, next time Lucky or whomever invokes Norman Bates in service of "and that's why trans women shouldn't be allowed in our bathrooms!" go right ahead and blandly pass it over, and that's fine.

as opposed to the more -correct- invoking of the real point of the character being -not- about dressing up in drag, but about a "nice," impeccably polite and buttoned up, quietly respectable and of course -utterly selfless- person having something very nasty indeed hidden away behind the veneer.

I can't imagine why Heart would take exception to such an observation, though.

"She wouldn't even hurt a fly."

belledame222 said...

Outis: dunno. It seemed like whoever broke that story at the local paper was pretty keen already. What would be the goal? To get them to cover it as a story? Letters to the editor?

belledame222 said...

I mean, cause, see, whatever one thinks of "real men," and yeah, one would expect an MRA to take the line that of course the problem is that Kyle's a sissyboy (please PLEASE can we not just lime Byrd already?)

but, point -here- being, a nice cleancut young man is a -lot- more plausible as an anti-rape advocate, innit? I mean, hairy and scary and Harley Davidson'd & grunty might win you accolades in certain crowds, but it doesn't really help with granting you access to wide-eyed vulnerable female audiences, much less victims in need of counseling, does it? No: you'd go, "damn, that guy's not SAFE; here, let's go with Norman here, he's such a nice concerned young man."


Outis said...

Oops! Mine was an incomplete thought. Sorry. I was thinking in terms of his sentencing on Aug 11. From What I have read people will be allowed to comment. As far as I am concerned, this body of work created over the last couple of days certainly constitutes “comment”.

Again, sorry for the half thought.


belledame222 said...

ah, hm. Interesting. Dunno how that works...

Trinity said...

Ah, Heart.

I'd say more, but it would probably go over like a lead balloon, and I'd rather preserve this uneasy truce.

Suffice it to say that 1) she should have credited and linked, as many have who don't usually like you or Ren, and 2) the assumption that you only care about making the world safe for porn is almost as reprehensible as it is stupid. (Which is to say really reprehensible, but monumentally stupid.)

beylita said...

See, it's shit like that which made me leave the radfem fold.

Trinity said...

Same, beylita, though I was never quite one of them, really. I considered myself a radical feminist (and some of my friends agreed), but had a few too many things on which I disagreed with the Uberbloggers to ever count, I think. :)

belledame222 said...

she's just an asshole by any other name, is all.

belledame222 said...

but I mean, yeah: would it have -killed- her to just write, "here's the link" and leave it at that? even ginmar did, albeit not to Renegade or me, of course, which, fine; there are enough radical feminists blogging this she could've (also) just linked to them and pretended we don't exist. But, no.

Ravenmn said...

Fake trackback

Renegade Evolution said...

belle you rule...

belledame222 said...

actually, you know how this should -really- be useful: the fuckbag goes to a lot of conferences that other people in the left/feminist blogospheres probably go to also.

most recently: Conference on Media Reform in Minneapolis. (!!)


and of course, he went to the anti-porn conf with Robert Jensen et al

...and, well, at least, now, everyone knows his name and what he looks minimum, for damn sure he ought to be a pariah if/when he shows his face in such venues ever again, goddamit.

Alex said...

are steretoyped as young (hence naive) and then the diminutive and effeminate “teddibly teddibly earnest”. Mr. Magoo comes to mind, or maybe Stewie on Family Guy.

Because what comes to mind when I think of Stewie is DEFINITELY "naive", "diminuitive", and "effeminate".

Trinity said...

"Because what comes to mind when I think of Stewie is DEFINITELY "naive", "diminuitive", and "effeminate"."

Yeah, this.

corey said...

Oh god, i do not have the intestinal fortitude to play that video...

belledame222 said...

It's pretty boring, actually. I mean, without the context. I imagine the fact that I think there's something weirdly hard about his eyes, like flat candies, is one of those psych phenomena that you decide after the fact, and if I'd never heard anything else about him I wouldn't have noticed any such thing in the slightest. He's very nondescript. Banal, even. Well spoken. Apparently sincere. Nice white teeth.

matttbastard said...

*farts in Seelhoff's general direction*

I can't bring myself to watch the video, either.

Kristin said...

Listen to him pontificating about the ills of marriage:

For some reason, I'm having a much more visceral reaction to this now that I've seen the videos. I do think he sounds like he's reciting a script in all of these (especially the one released for July 4th). I also think... Fuck, some people must have seen through this guy all along, but I somehow suspect that most everyone thought he was nice, polite, and sincere.

Lynn Gazis-Sax said...

OK, watched the one marriage one, and my reaction is basically, bored, want this to end. No creep factor, if I didn't know independently what he'd done, but also no, hey, this guy is cool, I'd like to hear more. Yeah, Belle's right; he is pretty non-descript and banal.

Ravenmn said...

I think most people would see through that nice and sincere facade he puts on.

He's trying to portray a Mr. Rogers personality while saying condescending, sarcastic things. Which is so NOT what Mr. Rogers would do or say.

I've never met a human being who acts with that kind of fake sincerity who hasn't been totally obsessed with himself and no one else. That becomes obvious fast.

Kristin said...

"I've never met a human being who acts with that kind of fake sincerity who hasn't been totally obsessed with himself and no one else. That becomes obvious fast."

Yeah, a lot of people do usually see through this kind of bullshit, but... Well, you know, a lot of people don't. I mean, he wouldn't have been doing it if he wasn't getting something out of it, right? I suspect that he was generally rewarded in interpersonal and pre-professional/academic interactions for presenting himself the way that he did. I've seen it happen many times.

That Nice, Well-Groomed, Polite, Sincere veneer that he puts on? I hate to say it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it served his interests in the sentencing phase, and I've got to wonder if it's has something to do with the school keeping the whole thing under wraps for so long? As in: "But Kyle is our nice scholarship student, and certainly we should give him a little credit and try to keep this under wraps."

Again, I've seen people fooled by this shit a few too many times to believe that most people are insightful enough to see through it. That's what's scary about sociopaths--they sometimes come off as banal, pleasant, and generally harmless.

Kristin said...

Also, does anyone know how open sentencing works? I'm hoping there can be some organizing work around the whole thing. I saw on some news site that he could get a maximum of five years in prison and something like a $7500 fine, but he could also get a lot less than that. I mean, the plea bargain (which I bet he got in part because of his Nice Guy Demeanor) took out the sexual assault charges, and so... It's scary to think what *little* could happen to him as a result of all of this.

I'm hoping there will be some organizing around the whole thing--and that anyone who lives remotely close to that courthouse in Buena Vista County will show up with signs.

Finally, if there are child porn possession charges pending (Has anyone been able to state that conclusively yet?), this could well go on for quite some time.

belledame222 said...

Yeah, what Kristin said. I'm sure a lot of people did think he was a smarmy git; hell, the comments at ET reveal as much. otoh, well, he didn't get to be RA and so on and on all by himself, either.

I mean, I -wish- most people were such great judges of character, it'd make life a lot simpler, but...

belledame222 said...

As for the school, they apparently did keep it on the down low. otoh he's now an alumnus, I take it. finished his classes via email according to a commenter, but they no longer have responsibility for him. and can't really sanction him either.

Iamcuriousblue said...

Perhaps he's a more "socially conscious", anti-capitalist, post-Millennium version of this.

Daisy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Daisy said...

Without attribution, of course.

You mean plagiarizing? Because if you steal stuff from someone's blog without attribution, that's what it is.

Of course, Piny pointed out long ago that Cheryl Lindsey Seelhoff frequently steals graphics and artwork from women without attribution, so I guess that isn't anything new. Just glancing through her recent entries, for instance: her posts for July 5th, 7th, 9th (both posts), 10th, 12th, all have blatantly stolen (uncredited) photos/graphics. (And that's just the FIRST PAGE of ONE of her FIVE BLOGS.)

She talks a big feminist game, then thinks it's fine to steal another woman's words (yours) and various other women's art and photographs. Their life's work, in short. ("She's every woman"--so it all REALLY belongs to her, right?)

She's just sleazy. She learned her ethics from the Quiverfull movement; what can you expect from such a person?

(((spits for emphasis)))

Anonymous said...

Is it even possible to be more dense or obsessed than you are Daisy. Buy a clue somewhere.

belledame222 said...

Ah, nony drive-bys, how we love them. bawk bawk bawk bawk BAWK bawk bawk...

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Iamcuriousblue said...

Wow, looks like some kid just discovered the Internet.

Maybe you should try a few more ALL CAPS and exclamation points, Anon – you're being far too subtle....

belledame222 said...

deleted. and, nonny loser, you waste of oxygen, post another diarrhea outburst in here and I -will- track your IP and post whatever I can find. Mom might take away your Internets privilege for -months.-

belledame222 said...

oh, score:

and yes, the IP matches what I had, I was just going over there to ask pisaquari if she had anything similar, it came from there.