Wednesday, April 05, 2006

Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. Some a lot more so than others.

You know, I gotta say, I don't envy straight people. Not that queer dating, etc. is exactly pitfall/crazy/loser-free. But at least we, or I anyway, seem to have avoided hooking up with people like this guy.

Essentially, the fact that he's made it to nearly 40 without having sexshul intercourse is the least of his worries, at least to my jaundiced eye (and a lot of the commenters there as well; the tone ranges from sympathetic to get-the-popcorn-and-watch-the-traffic-accident); the fact that he's made it that far without apparently developing basic empathic skills is a lot more troubling. And so, like many people who have poor-to-nonexistent social and/or emotional skills, he clings stubbornly to a script/belief system that is as creaky and sad as it is (frankly) offensive. The Cliff Notes:

1) Women prefer "scumbags" like rapists and murderers, or at least abusive jerks, no matter what they say, because noted criminals have gotten lots of nookie and he hasn't gotten any.

2) It's cool to be gay, but it's not cool to be an older male virgin. This is obvious because "Brokeback Mountain" was so popular. Also gay men are "often good looking with extroverted personalities."

3) Men know, but women don't understand: Women Are Spendthrifts. And greedy, and rude, and ungrateful. Especially in NYC, where this guy lives and dates.

4) His $150,000/year salary + nearly 40K in investment earnings isn't enough to attract the "hot gold digger babes," and clearly never will be.

5) It pisses him off that a woman he just started dating is making more money than he is, (or so he calculates, based on some Google detective work and careful questioning) when "she wasn't even born in this country." The 250K job she has is the one he should have had when he was thirty. And he could never marry her, because if they had a kid, he'd be the one who'd have to give up his lower-paying job to stay home, and he can't think of anything more "demasculating" than that, it'd be like getting his penis cut off, and what would he say at parties? And then she'd divorce him for a more alpha male, and he'd end up paying her alimony, "because women always mop up in divorce court no matter what the circumstances." That said, it turns him on that she has a high-powered job, which must make him a pervert 'cuz a "normal guy" would "get soft" in the presence of a woman with a better job than his. (as it turns out, he really liked her, but she didn't think they had any chemistry, which means that he is Doomed).

6) Rich women who don't have high-power jobs are Daddy-spoiled "princesses" who don't have to work to pay their rent, and he resents the shit out of it.

7) "Girls want a boyfriend who is bigger than they are so they can feel small and girly."

8) "Swapping saliva is gross"

9) The reason he sees so many "Asian-white interracial couples" (with the man white, not the other way around) is probably because whereas white chicks are after "alpha males," Asian babes are more likely to be seeking good husband material. Which explains why they're willing to date white "nice guy" geeks, as opposed to those gold digging white women (I guess). Too bad for his poor Asian brothers, though.

10) The top five "motivations" for his dating at all are "wanting what I can't have," "desire to be normal," "status," "habit," and plain ol' loneliness (that last is probably a good part of why people keep tuning in). Sex and love are at the bottom of the list, in that order.

11) He wouldn't belong to a club that would have him as a member (by his own admission)

12) The last woman who wanted to date him and actually kept coming back to his apartment to make him food and do whatever he was willing to do, he got to the point where he "can't stand her," after she gave him a tutorial of the "mysterious hidden female body parts" (and, by his own admission, he couldn't get it up). She's not that nice-looking, and she embarrassed him in public with her cheap, old clothing and her PDA's. At least the doormen thought he was getting laid, though.

13) Yes, he hears the advice to "get some therapy" all the time. Well, he's never heard of a therapist who treats virgins, specifically, so they must not ever do that (even though they have therapists who treat fear of flying and suchlike). And, there was one guy who was a 49-year-old virgin who was in therapy for eighteen years, and that didn't get him laid, 'till he saw a sexual surrogate. So basically, the therapy industry is just after your money (just like women), and a big waste of time.

14) No, he's apparently not gonna just hire a sex worker either, despite repeated suggestions that he do just that, if losing virginity is the main goal, here.

15) Nice Guys like him don't get no respect. More important, they don't get no trim. Clearly the problem is that he's too nice.


The thing is, you know, he's oddly sympathetic in a way, clearly: who can't relate to agonizing fears and shyness around sex and dating at some point in their lives? And yes, naked honesty (of a sort) is always interesting. Trouble is, he doesn't relate back. And while this clearly goes way way beyond simple sex and gender issues, I can't help but observe how his worldview, well, he didn't get it out of nowhere, either, now did he. And he seems to have at least a few guys cheering him on, as though he is speaking The Truth. I think, you know, there probably is a lot of this about; at any rate the "speed seduction" industry is thriving, due, one presumes, to a plenitude of boy customers like this sad bastard.

e.g., from Ross Jeffries:

Listen, if you keep hearing "I just want to be friends" from women,
then there's just one reason, and one reason alone for it: You haven't
learned to create the kind of states in women that MAKE THEM

At best you create states in her of comfort and casual enjoyment, which means...




Uh, yeah.

Misogyny, stereotyped sex roles, an unhealthy obsession with/reification of money, prizing externals over internal reality (including actual sensual enjoyment in the sex, once gotten, is a theme I'm getting), a sense of cheated entitlement, a sneaking suspicion that one must be a total failure if one isn't a Winner (who Takes It All, inevitably)--these are all the dark undercurrents of the American Dream. And the people who are supposed to be at the top of the food chain, or at least some of them, don't see themselves as fortunate, at all, at all. Which, in a sense, they're right about; they have been cheated, in a way, albeit not of the things they think they were cheated of. The problem is that they (again, some blatantly more so than others) can't or won't see that, or indeed anything or anyone else beyond their own woes. Narcissism, in other words; or something along those lines. Which makes awful, perfect sense in some ways: after all, Real Men (tm) don't have feelings, much less work to understand anyone else's. They just...perform. Or fail.

n.b: wrt relationships, this bit from one of the pages linked below felt particularly apt:

Narcissists do not have the emotional capacity to provide support or understanding to others. There are numerous defense mechanisms which narcissists use to confuse and unbalance those around them. Organization is unknown to narcissistic individuals and they avoid future plans if it concerns pleasing another for some reason not evident to them.

They do not want anyone thinking highly of them for several reasons. First, their sense of self as special, unique and deserving keeps them grounded at maintenance level in their relationships. Maintenance level is just enough, just in time to keep the folly of the relationship moving forward, but just enough and no more. To expend more energy on the relationship would cause others to feel some degree of predictability in the whole affair. Contributing to the happiness of the ones they already envy for having the ability to feel love is not a an activity in which narcissists wish to participate...

Just for balance's sake, I'll end this with a conversation I was privy to/part of a while ago; I jotted it down because it struck me as...well, see for yourself:

SETTING: belly dance class, taught by a young, pretty woman

Teacher: I dunno about this guy...I dunno. I mean, after a few
months, you *assume*...but, well, so, he didn't get me anything for
Valentine's Day...

(collective gasp, clucking, from other three students, all female &

Student #1: Dump him.

Teacher: I just don't know where we *are,* you know? I mean, okay,
not everyone belives in holidays like Valentine's Day, and he *is*
English, I totally get that, it's just...just a little piece of
chocolate, you know? *One* rose? But mostly I just don't know where I
stand with him.

Me: Well, was it just Valentine's Day, or do you feel like he's
blowing you off in general? Have you talked to him about this at all?

Student #2: That *is* a point. He's English. They don't make such a
big deal over Valentine's Day over there.

Teacher: Yeah, but he's been over here for, like, years. He should
totally know about Valentine's Day.

Student #1: You should dump him. I told (mumble) my guy I didn't
want anything for my 31st birthday, I just didn't want to be reminded
of it. And he *didn't get me anything!* He didn't get me ANYTHING!
Not even a card!

(knowing laughter)

Student #2: So, that was it?

Student #1: That was it, yeah.


Teacher: Yeah, I hear you. I just don't know...

Me: I guess I just think, on general principles, it's good to be
direct about what you want. I mean, I don't know what kind of a
relationship you have...

Student #1: I just think you shouldn't tell him *anything*. Make
*him* figure it out.

Student #2: (re student #1) Listen to her, don't listen to me. She
knows this stuff. I don't. She's married.

Student #1: Well, uh, no, I'm not, actually.

Teacher: So you think I should just keep quiet?

Student #2: Yeah, make him work.

Student #1: Make him work for it.

Me: Does that work?

Student #1: Well...I don't know!

Teacher: ...just a *little* piece of chocolate...



In other words, and in sum:

Sorry, I don't speak your crazy moon language.


Amber said...

Wow, he sounds like a real winner. I can't imagine how it is that the ladies aren't beating down his door.

belledame222 said...

Well, clearly, if he looked like a movie star, behaved like an "alpha male" and made seven figures a year instead of six, his problems would be solved, pretty much.

Thin Black Duke said...

I've known people like this guy. And they all spew the same "nice guys don't get laid" line of crap. Thing is, these "nice guys" (at least the ones I've known) are usually the biggest judgemental assholes. I wonder how many times he's been on a date and told a woman what she really wants? Gee, I wonder why he can't get laid.

After reading through a few posts, all I can say is you're right; getting some is the least of his problems. The sad part is that he seems to be aware that his ideas are misogynistic (and racist and materialistic and a whole bunch of other shit) and he apparently relishes it.

Veronica said...

Oh, fuck a bunch of Nice Guys. Nice is like Zen. If you have to mention it, you probably aren't.

belledame222 said...

"If you meet the Nice Guy on the road, kill him."

belledame222 said...

kevin: I'm not sure he *does* recognize that, or relish it, is the thing. Mostly his responses to such critiques (admittedly some harsher in tone than others, but anyway) boil down to: Why's everyone picking on meee? See, I *knew* you couldn't help.

which is typical of this sort of person, I find.

The bottom line, to me, is the solipsism. All the other shit--misogyny, racism, name yer stereotyping/bogotry--stems from that, here at least, if not always.

Because it seems to me that any systematic/hegemonic oppression (i.e. sexism) is based first of all in a lack of empathy; one can't or won't (or simply doesn't) see the "Other" as human, as opposed to simply a screen for the bigot's (oppressor's, whatever) fantasy projections. There is a fundamental disconnect.

If you have someone who's very narcissistic, well, already they have some profound problems with empathizing with *anybody,* let alone members of scapegoated groups.

So my theory is, while one doesn't have to be a narcissist to be a bigot, if you *are* a narcissist you are inevitably going to be a bigot as well, however that ultimately manifests.

Howard said...

I just love the way they completely ignored your "Have you talked to him about it?" statement. If she can't talk to him, they BOTH need to get off the dating highway.

The same for the girl who told her guy she didn't want anything for her birthday and then gets mad when he respects her wishes. AAARRRRGGGGGHHH!!!

I know, I know. I'm a guy and just don't understand. BS! It's a game. And dating in the gay world has made me disrespect the non-blunt due to the amount of game playing.

I guess if everyone had integrity then then world would be boooooring.

Great post! And I have to point out the line that made me literally spit out my soup:

collective gasp, CLUCKING, from other three students

belledame222 said...

yah, you know: tlck, tlck, tsk.

What I think that game is, is the result of heavy-handed raisin' to be Nice and not confront. It is culture (and quite possibly class)-specific as well as gender-related. It makes me want to chew my arm off.

Well, and the gender part, I think, has more to do with the whole emphasis on Romance. The One. Who will Solve Everything and Be Everything. (I suppose men aren't immune, but it's still more heavily skewed toward the wimminfolk). Twoo Wuv means never having to say you're sorry...or anything else, really. If so-and-so loved you, they would just KNOW.

It is terrific, I must say. At the one extreme, you have people who barely grasp the concept of internal reality at all, much less empathizing with other peoples' feelings. At the other, you have people who expect not only perfect empathy but, apparently, psychic powers. No fucking wonder John Grey and suchlike clean up on this shit.

Thin Black Duke said...

Yeah Belle, you're right. Relish is probably the wrong word here.

This guy does seem to have an extreme narcissitic delusion thing gong on though (assuming that this isn't all being made up).

When I read this:

All you write about is how people look! Blah blah blah whine whine whine, you have the maturity of a 13 year old, you can't possibly be almost 40 the blog most be a hoax, you're a loser, grow up or you won't ever get laid. And the post is racist too.

I wrote this comment first so you don't have to.

which was written by the virgin, I can't help but to think that he is aware of the criticisms most people are going to have about his opinions, yet he just doesn't care. That's how sure he is that he has it all figured out.

Hell, he makes it sound like anyone that isn't making $100,000 plus a year or look like Johnny Depp isn't getting laid: and it's all the fault of you evil selfish women.

Whatever. Absolute bullshit.

I'm sure that the almost 40-year old virgin would see this as an instance of my being an asshole and thus proof of his argument, but I hope he never gets laid in his life.

Ugh...why does this shit piss me off so much?

belledame222 said...

The possibility that he might still breed?

no, I dunno.

It crossed my mind that it might be a hoax. Thing is, 1) I have encountered several other men who are at least as clueless 2) carrying out a hoax that long-running and elaborate would be, to my mind, just about as fucked up in its own way.

I mean, Andy Kaufman was funny, but I don't think he was, you know, the *healthiest* person in the world...

myrna the minx said...

He's lying about being a virgin to get laid.

Howard said...

Well, hell, then technically, I'm a virgin. At least in the bibical sense of the word.

I'm going to start a blog!

belledame222 said...

oh, I totally believe he's a virgin.

What's interesting and again, kind of sad, is that there are hints of what would probably be diagnosed as social phobia, if he were ever to actually go to a, you know, therapist. Clearly that's not the only thing going on, but it's there.

and again, as I was saying up above: what really strikes me here is that the drive here is *not* especially sexual; in fact sexuality seems to be more repellent and terrifying and bewildering than not, to him. He wants to get laid 'cause he wants to be "normal," and "status;" (and fear of being alone); he has lost most sense of his own internal reality, it seems to me. And that is *really* sad.

Rey said...

Does all this mean that I - an introverted, gay, Asian-American man, who has never made more than a low five figures, doesn't look like a movie star, is somewhere around a (oh, I'd say) Theta male, who is a nice enough guy, in his second 4+ year relationship, and has had enough sex in this life to feel a little Catholic shame every so often - does this mean I'm imaginary? That I am a fairy creature from an unreal plane?

If so, can I please look like Omi from Xiaolin Showdown instead of a normal human being? It would be more fun. I mean, if I'm an imaginary, non-existent creature why do I keep mimicking an actual human being? I'd rather have a big yellow head and Kung Fu powers.

This reminds me of all those gay men who chase after Chelsea boys and then complain that they can't get a boyfriend because all queers are superficial, money-hungry bitches who cannot love.


belledame222 said...

Yes, Rey. You don't exist. Sorry to break it to you.

That's always the most disconcerting thing with these people, I find; not just that they're insulting, but that they can't or won't seem to *see* (or hear) you when you're standing right in front of them.

I often think of the Far Side cartoon, you know, what we say to dogs and what they hear:

(something like)

"Now, Ginger, I don't want you jumping on the couch anymore, understand? That is a very bad thing to do, Ginger. You have muddy paws. Here is *your* bed, over here..."

and what they hear:

"blah blah blah GINGER blah blah blah blah GINGER blah blah blah..."

Bitch | Lab said...

i just posted Nice guy archiving because it reminded me of what Daniel Davies said long ago about 'nice guys'. they so emotionally needy and self centered that they are the assholes that a guy like this is.

I've remembered it all these years because it was so hilarious and spot on.

Bitch | Lab said...

heh. funny thing is, het men are bigger romantics than het women. they tend to believe that there is one true love out there just for them. they often feel that a woman is the one to solve all their problems. they often express love in terms of, she changed my life and gave me something to live for and be good for something. 'til her, I had nothing.

myrna the minx said...

What veronica said. Maybe "nice guys" who dont get laid are the equivalent of "bitter women" who don't get laid. Both equally distasteful stereotypes. But wait a second, one difference is that these nice guys are almost always self proclaimed whereas bitter women are usually labeled so by others.

As a "bitter woman" I run into these "nice guys" a lot as you can imagine, and its always my fault I dont like them. Of course, its also strange that I dont mind being single.

I like nice people but I also like strong people who can call me on my b.s. Those nice people (not self proclaimed) who also have a healthy self image and dont mind being bumped around every once in while are pretty cool with me but seem few and far between.

Tale of a recent encounter with "nice guy":

belledame222 said...

B/L: that fits with my own experiences as well, actually (that het men tend to be the incurable goopy romantics more often than not). It makes sense in a way I suppose: if you're socialized to *not* get your emotional needs met in general, much less by your male buddies (and if you adhere to the traditional homosocial norm, that's mostly who's going to be your fellow travellers), then you're even more likely to pin it all on one person--She--who will come along and, as you say, solve all your problems.

Sly Civilian said...

hate to even say it...

but queer dating can be pretty crazy too. self-haters, anyone?

belledame222 said...

Oh, sure. It's just a different flavor of crazy. ime, imho, etc.

4F said...

'If so, can I please look like Omi from Xiaolin Showdown instead of a normal human being? It would be more fun. I mean, if I'm an imaginary, non-existent creature why do I keep mimicking an actual human being? I'd rather have a big yellow head and Kung Fu powers.'

Rey, if I was a gay man, and not a het woman, I would so do you, if only for the wonderfulness of this post!

SuzyWeiss said...


This guy sounds like he is pissed that the world will not conform to his belief system.

Namely, if I’m a nice guy and women should recognize this and fall all over themselves to capture my heart.

I call this ‘If I Build It They Will Come Illusion’.

This guy has watched one too many Hollywood chic flicks were after a lot of ups and downs, guy gets girl at the end, and rides of into the sunset.

Rather than look at what he is doing and how he is doing ‘IT’ and saying this isn’t working. “I need to change.” He is still holding on to his illusion and is angry and self righteous.

Ladies, this guy has danger written all over him.

Belle Dame, I might need to borrow your ax.

Suzy Weiss
Straight Talk For Divorced Women’s Dating Success

SuzyWeiss said...


This guy sounds like he is pissed that the world will not conform to his belief system.

Namely, if I’m a nice guy and women should recognize this and fall all over themselves to capture my heart.

I call this ‘If I Build It They Will Come Illusion’.

This guy has watched one too many Hollywood chic flicks were after a lot of ups and downs, guy gets girl at the end, and rides of into the sunset.

Rather than look at what he is doing and how he is doing ‘IT’ and saying this isn’t working. “I need to change.” He is still holding on to his illusion and is angry and self righteous.

Ladies, this guy has danger written all over him.

Belle Dame, I might need to borrow your ax.

Suzy Weiss
Straight Talk For Divorced Women’s Dating Success