Friday, December 22, 2006

Another one from the projection files:

In short, trans are nutjobs. The bathroom is about the last place I want to be alone with a male nutjob. These unfortunate, but seriously disturbed individuals belong on the 5th floor in a straight jacket. Not in a women’s bathroom.


Source: three guesses. I'm not gonna link to that snake pit again, but you can find it, if you haven't figured it out already, via Kim, or antiprincess, or Lucy, or Andrea.

p.s. Confidential to Guess Who: No, you creep, since you were wondering: that's not why I hate you.

Keep wondering.


R. Mildred said...

WTF!? how hard is it to not feel so absolutely fucking reactionarily threatened by theoretical people she probably wouldn't even know was taking a piss next to her.

Unless she uses special kurlian mirrors that she waves around near her when she's taking a pee break to ensure that she's not sharing her near-cubicle-five-mile-wide-de-penisarised-zone with any de-cocked patirarchal spies who are all secretly spying on her excretion functions.

Fucking hell, ONE crazy tin-foil wearing paraannbartowoid is enough, surely?

belledame222 said...

they seem to be multiplying and/or getting worse, or at least more public about it. and that there is a realm of paranoia where even Blartow does not tread, as far i know at least.

yeah, IBTP is beginning to take on an atmosphere of Marat/Sade, innit?

Daisy said...

My life was so much more peaceful before I started reading the comments over there. Ugh.

nexy said...

"These unfortunate, but seriously disturbed individuals belong on the 5th floor in a straight jacket."

you know, at this point, i'd be ok with being on the 5th floor in a straight jacket. i'm so tired of trying to just get through this life in a mannor that is even marginally livable for me without the rest of the world dissecting my life and motivations. and frankly, this working for a living thing is becoming a bit overwhelming as well.

where do i sign up?

Ravenmn said...

I don't got to TF because I'm not interested in a lot of snark and she is. And it's been a long time since I followed the women's separatist community. But, I do know that some serious disagreements and bad behavior has occurred between trans groups and separatist groups around the Michigan Music Festival, etc. So comments that appear to be coming out of nowhere actually have an origin in old turf battles.

It's still bigotry, and I'm not defending it. I'm just not surprised, having seen some of the history.

R. Mildred said...

I don't got to TF because I'm not interested in a lot of snark

That's not a very good reason to avoid twisty, the fact that she's a patriarchal toolbag is.

shame on you *wags finger at ravenm's vagina*

Who is marat? eewsoum

Andrea said...

I can't read that comments thread anymore, I'll have to bleach my eyes if I do.

little light said...

Fuckin' hell, I'm actually enough of a masochist to have read the whole thread.
"The tribe that bleeds"? Tell that to every asshole who's ever laid a hand on me or ground me into the dirt or split my lip or beat me with hockey sticks because I didn't fit into their goddamned system. I'll show you some damn bleeding.

Thanks for keeping up the good fight, BD.

belledame222 said...

She's not just snarky, ravenm, is the thing; this sort of crap at her site isn't new,'s been a pattern. It may be getting worse. But it's not a coincidence her fan base is increasingly made up of such people.
And, i do think she is shall we say a bad influence on the rest of the 'sphere as well, or has been. she has a nasty habit of throwing bombs and sitting back smugly to watch the (intrablog) drama erupt. also sending the flying monkeys after some random hapless near-anonymous blogger, from time to time; i do think fuckheads like pony and so forth have been emboldened by her enabling.

that, and her introduction of some kind of half-asses quasi-radfem "theory" which a whole bunch of more mainstream people are/were actually taking seriously enough to consider for a time; at any rate all of the seriously stupid arguments about lipstick and heels and so forth that happen outside the radical feminist blogs, on the more "mainstream" blogs, seem to always connect back to her somehow.

and of course she didn't invent any of this shit: not the transphobia, not the stupid as shit fights over cosmetics and so forth; that has been going on for dog's years, as you say; and there are/were even other bloggers that were already carrying that torch nicely. Heart, Nikki Craft, some of the genderberg people, a bunch of smaller blogs.

but Twisty i think is especially corrosive because

1) she writes pretty, and on the surface comes off as "reasonable" most of the time on account of she doesn't yell and scream or directly do most of her dirty work, which means lots of smart, sane, decent people take her seriously where they wouldn't the others, even if they don't buy or even understand her most outlandish ideas (whether she actually takes them seriously herself is irrelevant; others, the -other- members of her fanbase, the luckys and so forth, -do-)

2) she's a cold, nasty, manipulative fuck who gets off on (nonconsensual) control, hurting vulnerable people, and creating chaos, and is smart enough and "likable" enough to avoid being called on it as often as she should be.

belledame222 said...



Winter said...


In the New Year I think R and I need to sit down and have a look at the MtG blogroll. It's a difficult issue because we don't include people on there because we agree with them; they go on there if we feel they are in some way important in the feminist blog community and contribute to the discourse. On my personal blog I only include people I like/am interested in/agree with.

However, with MtG do have to draw the line somewhere. We don't publish transphobic comments on the blog, so should we be linking to a site hosting the kind of comments in the thread cited?

belledame222 said...

It's your call, winter. I own my own opinions. Just because I think *ahem* is a vile piece o'crap whose "contributions" at this point are mostly discord and fatuousness doesn't mean you have to. hey, i used to like reading her stuff, too.

on the other hand, besides the fact that yah, she does host some rather appallingly vile, bigoted people (and maybe you were referring to someone else[s] as well there, for all i know), i just think: exactly how many diatribes about high heels and lipstick does the world -need-? is it not possible to talk about such things without her brilliant Pronouncements, even assuming that these are indeed subjects which "we" want to talk about, in the feminist-verse?

just asking.

KH said...

At a certain level, this kind of naked hated speech is self-sealing, self-marginalizing. My instinct is to ask whether it has any implications for the rest of us, but does it? Maybe not. I hope not, but it does seem obvious that a lot of more soi disant sensible-shoes “mainstream” persons ascribe some sort of authority, etc. So it becomes, against all evidence, a “challenging,” theoretically interesting perspective.

I’m not sure impassively presiding over this kind of thing, all grim righteous satisfaction, qualifies as “reasonable.” (“They say my methods are unsound. Do you think my methods are unsound?”)

It does seem like the fan base is increasingly made up of such people. It’s what health policy analysts call an adverse selection death spiral: an insurance policy that happens to have enrolled a higher than average share of sick people will have to raise its rates to pay for their higher than average expenses, which causes healthier enrollees to switch to cheaper policies (i.e., ones with healthier subscribers), which leaves behind a sicker, more expensive to cover group, which makes them further raise their rates, which drives out more relatively healthy people, etc., etc., until there’s only one very sick person left in the plan. You see the analogy: the more this kind of hatefulness dominates a space, the fewer non-haters will bother with it, etc., etc., until only the very most hateful person is left.

belledame222 said...

As a general principle, it's harder for me to answer that one, because you know, there's a difference--*usually*--between the host of the site and the commenters.

If you're talking a big, heavily trafficked site, normally i would say that i don't think it's reasonable to hold the owner responsible for each and every commenter, no.

If you're talking about the host/owner herself, that to me is a different story.

so i mean, you know, with someone like say Heart/the Margins, one would have to decide to what degree her position on TG issues is acceptable enough for you to link to, because that is -her- stuff as well as the posters.

in the case of IBTP, it's a bit trickier because the host doesn't overtly express such sentiments herself; the time she made that horrible crack at piny i tend to think was more a spite and vengeance-motivated attempt to hurt him where he lived than any expression of actual ideology. which, let me go on the record, personally -I- think is actually -worse,- but others' mileage may vary.

but yeah: just because she lurves Sheila Jeffreys doesn't necessarily mean she agrees with her each and every precept. in fact i seem to recall an earlier conversation between piny and her (when he was still speaking to her, obviously) wherein she's talking about how Jeffreys is her soul twin or some shit like that, and piny's all, well, y'know, transphobic, and Twisty was all, oh, yeah, right, that. well, that part's not so hot, I suppose.

on the other hand, as i've said: her blog increasingly reminds me of those "mild mannered" people who own really vicious, out of control dogs. Which is never a coincidence, either.

belledame222 said...

kh slip't. yes, it is a spiral, for exactly the reasons you say.

but still, as you also say, there are "mainstream" people, people whom i like and respect very much (oddly enough, mostly men at this point) who still think she's the bee's knees. they come in, read her amusingly acerbic pieces on this or that or the other thing, and either don't read the comments or manage to sort of gloss over the bits where really nasty shit is being said to people who really don't have it coming, or the whole hive mentality, probably just chalking it up to y'know life on the Internetz, whaddya gonna do.

and then they're back to talking about food or some breezy shit like that (whew!) and, well, who doesn't like to banter about food and so on? see, it's not so bad in there. Twisty's a good fellow, really. because, dammit, at the end of the day, how could anyone so smart and witty and urbane not be okay? yeah, she's got some nutty commenters, but jeez, just ignore the loonies; she can't help it if she attracts nutters...


Winter said...

is it not possible to talk about such things without her brilliant Pronouncements, even assuming that these are indeed subjects which "we" want to talk about, in the feminist-verse?

Sure it is!

Although possibly there has been too much allowing of certain people to set the agenda with regard to what gets discussed in the feminist blogging community (deliberate understatement there).

I can only imagine how transsexual and transgendered people must feel reading that thread. I can imagine how I would feel if I had to read a long series of lurid homophobic fantasies about lesbianism. It would make me feel frightened and ill.

belledame222 said...

>I’m not sure impassively presiding over this kind of thing, all grim righteous satisfaction, qualifies as “reasonable.”

well, no, and obviously i don't think so either; but, a lot of people i think -do- see her as reasonable, because, well, see comment above.

Ironic detachment and a WASPy aloofness, not to mention a vocabulary fulla fifty-dollar words and a pretty pretty syntax, go a long way toward credibility. as does talking about soothingly familiar subjects, like where to go out to eat, and the horribleness of Republicans, and other, subtler things within one's frame of reference.

belledame222 said...

winter: well, as per homophobia, didja catch the bit on i think it was some other thread, wherein the ever lovely pony said that someone "sounds like a fag"?

Winter said...

Nope. I never read the comments threads over there unless give an explicit reason to do so!

belledame222 said...

and of course the first thread that really put me off the regulars--but not as much TF herself, that came later, although i did delink because i was tired of the dynamic--was one of the blowups wherein kinky folk were being talked about in precisely such demonizing, dehumanizing terms. (no, Twisty, clearly, you calling it "corny" isn't the main problem here). and yes, there was if not homophobia there, certain gross misperception of gay and lesbian relationships (w/in kink, but still) by a straight man, not only allowed to run rampant, but -showcased,- by TF herself.

belledame222 said...

winter: i am -trying- not to read the creep -or- her commenters at -all- these days; other brave/persistent people are the ones who first bird-dogged all of this.

and i have to say if it weren't for them, i wouldn't have found the former grannyvibe again, even if i did have to get there via the charming spectacle of some other prize lecturing her on how to be a better cancer patient and/or feminist (apparently having stage IV lymphoma, insuranceless and in the process of having to sell her house isn't sufficient).

oh yeah, and guess who -hasn't- been over there to say so much a "hello," p.s.?

belledame222 said...

sorry, above was meant to read: "isn't sufficient cause to be 'bitter.'"

R. Mildred said...

she's a cold, nasty, manipulative fuck who gets off on (nonconsensual) control, hurting vulnerable people, and creating chaos, and is smart enough and "likable" enough to avoid being called on it as often as she should be.

...Or a "toolbag" as we whipper snappers call such things.

I wnat to know if she's ghost writing for dawn eden or if dawn eden is ghost writing for her becuase boh of their writing styles seem to consist of primarily:

- Whining about sex an tee city feminism.

- bemoaning the end of culture and civilisation.

- slut shaming.

- failing to have sex.

- bemoaning other people having sex.

- being huge tools.

- slut shaming

- objecting to porn.

- being pampered rich brats who don't actually ever seem to have ever held down a real job in their lives.

- enabling the patriarchy.

- hating penises.

- being huge tools.

- vaginaphobia.

- having no sense of scale.

- being unable ot read for context.

- whining about sex and the city feminism.

- strawfeminists all over the place.

- Torturous and strained logic.

- MASSIVE amounts of stupidity.

- slut shaming.

- WHIIIIIiiiiiiiiiNING about everything.

- a total inability to actually do anything meaningful with their lives.

- sucking their father's (we're talking literally patriarchal) balls.

- Slut shaming.

belledame222 said...

of course the last time someone compared her to Dawn Eden she expressed bewilderment that anyone would liken her to that "zipper-cunt."

belledame222 said...

i can't actually read enough Dawn Eden myself to say for sure one way or the other; the one or two times i tried i staggered away with a blinding migraine.

i suppose the main difference is style, mostly: whether you prefer your fatuous self-serving sexism disguised as Caring drenched in saccharine'd schmaltz or gall.

Rootietoot said...

WHy is it so hard to understand that someone is uncomfortable in their body? Fat people like me get our stomachs stapled and spend hours in a gym. People with wrinkles get botox and facelifts.While those aren't as extreme as gender-changing, they are medical procedures and require behavior modification to be successful.
So why is it such a stretch to recognize someone's need to be a man or woman?
I swear, these people...fundamentalists. I just don't get them.

Alon Levy said...

It's not especially shocking that extremists sound so similar. In theory there are mountains of difference, but in practice communists are almost identical to fascists, radical feminists are almost identical to men's rights activists, Intifada supporters are almost identical to right-wing Zionists, and libertarians are almost identical to (overt) authoritarians.

Ravenmn said...

shame on you *wags finger at ravenm's vagina*

Why thank you, R! I happen to like things wagging in the area of my vagina! LOL!

I stopped reading Twisty over the sucking a dick is the uber ick discussion. What nonsense!

she has a nasty habit of throwing bombs and sitting back smugly to watch the (intrablog) drama erupt.

Yup. Sitting back and saying nothing when you have the power to intervene and put an end to bigotry and stupidity is a common trick of racists, sexists and site owners. That's exactly what I saw the one time I paid attention at TF.

OTOH, when I read the discussions about Michigan, I saw a couple of people who claimed to be mtf acting viciously toward separatist women, including luknyl (sp?). It came off totally as a need for male infiltration into female-only space. It also advanced the absurd notion that the worst thing ever to happen to trans people was separatist women. Um, I don't think so.

It appears that lnl has used that experience as an excuse to be a raging bigot about all trans people. Which is stupid AND ignorant.

Somebody hand little light her comfort food/drink of choice. I can't imagine the stamina it took to read the whole thing!

Beylita said...

and then they're back to talking about food or some breezy shit like that (whew!) and, well, who doesn't like to banter about food and so on? see, it's not so bad in there. Twisty's a good fellow, really. because, dammit, at the end of the day, how could anyone so smart and witty and urbane not be okay?

Funny, but it was the food post after the blowjob wars that made me turn my back on that site for months. There was a post about some restaurant she went to and the pity for a waitress because said waitress had lips that weren't thin, and so were obviously injected with collagen making the waitress a sad dupe of patriarchy. And the comments supported the whole thick lips equals patriarchal tool (they did say enhanced lips instead of thcik, but defaulted to assuming there was work done) and how thick lipped people must be inferior based on experiences they had with swelling. But racism (or any other bigotry that's not the misogyny she abhors) doesn't get called out on account of sex trumping every other opression ever.

And damn if I didn't go back there and read those comments. And it's even worse than back in June. Piny was right.

R. Mildred said...

It's not especially shocking that extremists sound so similar.

Well the commonality is the lust for power coupled with a willingness to abuse what power they have - twisty and eden both center their schtick around berating and hating on women who are most open to being attacked as result of the oppressive systems they're both suckling from (the similarity between their past lives is probably also at fault, both ex-rock band members, both born into money, both raised to be good little daughters, but where dawn is an catholic jew twisty is a lesbian who's had cancer - but all of those things are minority statuses they utilise as a defensive/cliqueish mechanisms in the style of Trex) - the same goes for all the other groups you mention - my hatred of HAMAS and hezbollah is based partly on their willingness to use torture but also the fact that they're both just palestinian exploiters of the intifada that suck up power - political, military and financial - only so long as they don't do anything productive towards the end of actually liberating palestine from Israeli occupation.

Bloated ticks on the back of the intifada/feminist movement (delete as appropriate)

Twisty is a more stupid version of HAMAS basically, which in turn is an inferior copy of the contras and sandinistas.

Wheel of parasitic assholes, spin spin spin, tell us the lesson that we must... learn.

I'm personally really upset that Ginmar (who is a fucking intelligent ex-service woman ffs, what the hell she's doing over there fucking confuses and saddens me) and a few other smart women are hanging around there so much. I'm going to have ot stage some sort of interwebbical intervention at some point.

God so hates me.

Tom Nolan said...

OTOH, when I read the discussions about Michigan, I saw a couple of people who claimed to be mtf acting viciously toward separatist women, including luknyl (sp?). - Ravenmn

Are you suggesting that Luckynkl is a person? Because I have been reliably informed that "she" is nothing more than a virus cooked up in a computer lab by a couple of mischievous radfem programmers in 2004. It has sporadically infested the femiblogisphere ever since. Ditto for Pony and SaltyC. I mean, come on, those are clearly file names

belledame222 said...

Hey, welcome beylita.

What really sent me over the edge wasn't so much the BJ blowup itself as the way she responded, or rather didn't, in its wake:

1) a two-line butter wouldn't melt in her mouth "who, me?" and an added snark at the exhausted end of a whole fuckload of passionate, involved back and forth all over the damn place, one of the very few times she deigned to make a public appearance or comment at all

2) the pick-up post at her own spot, where instead of taking on any of the people who would've actually been a match for her (she could've responded to the R Mildred flame, for instance, instead of just obliquely whining about how she can't even post anything on her own blog, now), she highlighted yet another hapless random zhlub from her comments section, pretending to "only" be mocking her syntax/grammar when of course she was actually using her pro-BJ comment as bait for one last round for the flying monkeys (which included the infamous luckynkl coprophagia-comparison, i do believe)

3) the gutshot to piny, which actually would've been enough by itself, even if none of the rest of it had happened.

I mean, I already had written her off (and written about her, scathingly) long since; but, since the "mutant" post was inclined to cut her a little more slack or at least back off. ironically this happened right afterward; but at first, before i read it, i remember i was all, o jeez, okay, so she's fapping about blowjobs now, well, whatever, let her do her thing...

but, as it turned out, it was really truly fucking nasty. the "don't quit your dayjobs crack," the whole way it was set up, actually--all of it.

So, yeah, that was the second turning point for me: I'd long since stopped liking her, but that was when i went from just a kind of disgusted impatience with some of her positions to "jesus, this person is really an evil fuck, isn't she."

belledame222 said...

RM: augh! you said it! you said the Name!

we do not talk about g-m-r in here out loud, as the g-m-r has this...habit of tracking down every single thing anyone Bad anyone has ever said about her, anywhere, ever, and fastening her teeth into one's ankle like a deranged pit bull/chihuahua mix.

yes, it is sad that someone with g-m-r's credentials, at least wrt Iraq, is, well, the way she is.

but, it ain't just at TF's; the woman is a force of...something... in her own right.

(also see: "gender trumps race," and/or google "otf wank" and her name sometime. for starters).

R. Mildred said...

yes, it is sad that someone with g-m-r's credentials, at least wrt Iraq, is, well, the way she is.

But she used to hang around pandagon, she used to bust up the assholes trolls, she's smart and strong dammit.

Wait a sceond, does she have a blog?

Tom Nolan said...

I'm personally really upset that G*nm*r - r.mildred

It just isn't done to say that name on this blog. It's like mentioning Macbeth in a theatre - it's terribly bad luck. And we know by now that l'innomable spends a lot of time in front of the radar screen squinting for the least sign of hostile presences to launch her IBMs at.

belledame222 said...

she has a livejournal.

go ahead and try to talk sweet sweet reason to her. just let me/us'ns know ahead of time so that we can get sufficient distance and a good pair of binoculars. and popcorn. lots of popcorn.

belledame222 said...

seriously, if you do talk to her about TF, and you really want a chance of making any headway, do -not- mention my name, or antip's, or (especially) Bitch Lab, or probably pretty much anyone posting here, to be on the safe side, that isn't already on her friends list, anyway. if she thinks you're friendly with us she'll immediately write off anything you have to say, i guarantee it.

not saying she won't do anyway, but...hey, i've been wrong before.

personally, this is not a mission that i see anything productive coming out of even if i did think she'd agree about Twisty, know, godspeed and god bless.

R. Mildred said...

Well duh.

little light said...

Yeah, winter, "frightened and ill" mostly sums it up. I usually try to have a sense of humor about these things, and shrug it off with mockery in classic queer style--or let it turn into anger, and let that anger melt into love for what's worth protecting, and keep up the fight. I try and feel compassion for the people who're ignorant and frightened and can't see.

But some days? Reading stuff like this? Fuck it. Frightened and ill. It just hurts too much.

But, as per the stamina ravenm so kindly mentioned (and yeah, I'll take a drink for certain), I like to know what guns are pointed at me and mine, and why, and whether or not they're loaded. And I like to inoculate myself against the worse stuff I know I'll run into down the line by reading this hate before I have to hear it out loud, and hearing it out loud before someone tries to beat it into me some more.

Better to be hurt, but ready, than pretend these people aren't out there.

ps--BD, when was the gutshot to piny? I missed that. What grounds was it on? And who do I have to set on fire, since you don't fuck with piny?

Tom Nolan said...

Two Questions

Did anyone see this photograph?

Does anyone remember the film The Abominable Doctor Phibes?

Makes you see her in a whole new light, doesn't it?

belledame222 said...

little light:

the grounds, such as they were, was when piny was calling her on her shit wrt the BJ thing. among other things, he wrote, "It's a tiring dynamic." (on feministe).

about halfway down the comments thread, TF pops up, quotes that line, and says, and I quote:

"You got that right, girl! I'm exhausted."

smooth, right?

and yeah, it makes me ill, too. the only thing i can offer is that the particular fuckwits who are currently throwing around this ignorant crap are probably terrified themselves, christ only knows of what-all. men, other women, their own anger, everything. but yeah, it's still sickening.

belledame222 said...

TN: um. Did no one else notice the -oddness- of her juxtaposing that particular study with that particular photo?

the movie poster: o, i don't know. didn't see it. don't exactly tweak the funny part, although i get the general idea.

...gah. i was just playing online frogger, and i keep wanting to -leap- off one line and jump up the paragraph before the crocodile eats me. damn, that's worse than tetris hangover.

Vanessa said...

Oh. My. Fucking. God.

What. The. Fuck.

I want to comment about that thread, but all I can do is make little sentences out of profane phrases.

Fuck. Ing. A.

And yes, I hold Twisty responsible for policing her comments. If someone were saying things that out of line on my blog, damn right I'd have to set them straight.

And wrt Sheila Jeffreys, yes, bigotry does negate any other "good work" she may have done. I mean, if a segregationist politician had a good environmental policy or something, should that excuse them?


belledame222 said...

Sheila Jeffreys is just plain horrible.

sophie said...

Found the gossip this morning, through the torturous labyrinths of site meter which are confusing but interesting... (Possibly the first time I'd read The Shouty Woman)

And yeah, there's a disappointing amount of hatred flung around the threads at IBTP. But that's probably the worst I've seen.
I don't find the anger in radfem alienating, but alienating attitudes sure are. TF - I think I long ago got to the stage where you scan the posts for pertinent observations and don't bother with the comment threads (but then a full-scale war blows up and everyone links to her).

G*m*r doesn't seem to have chopped too many heads off lately...

Your good selves - better not comment. But I'll give you a shot at guessing how many on-line identities/blogs I'm running if you like. And why, if you wanted to consider further why people might have several.
(the link I followed wasn't on Sophie's sitemeter, for a start).

Do you have any specific thoughts on unity in the feminist blogosphere? You seem to be good at finding a) discord and b) nice people.

Tom Nolan said...

the movie poster: o, i don't know. didn't see it. - BD

You haven't seen the Abominable Doctor Phibes? Belledame, you're nearly as old as I am, and you haven't LIVED yet, kinky boots notwithstanding.

I just couldn't see that picture of Twisty Pere and Mere without thinking immediately of Phibes and Vulnavia.

OK, I'm strange.

belledame222 said...

At this point I am actually not even really thinking it's about feminism or any other ideology per se. It's something else. And no, I don't think unity's really desirable in that...

Well, lemme put it this way.

You know the whole business about "objectification?"

It's not about sex or anything like that. It's about, can you see the other person as a person. Can you -hear- the other person. What Martin Buber called an I-Thou relationship, as opposed to I-It.

It starts with at least being -interested- in the other person.

If someone else demonstrates hirself capable of this, i am willing to at least hear out what sie has to say, even if i find myself alienated by a lot of it, politically speaking.

And if someone else has repeatedly demonstrated that no matter how many times people have pleaded with hir to have a heart, to just stop speaking -for- them and listen for three seconds, that they simply aren't interested--

Then, I don't care how much my positions superficially resembles that person's. How much we "agree." I don't have the time for it. And, if the person is actively hurting someone I care about, I'm going to say something.

Ultimately, you know, my problem with Twisty isn't about her -beliefs,- much as I disagree with a number of them. I have links and conversations with people whose worldviews and backgrounds are even farther from mine.

It's something else.

Whatever you want to call the something else, I determine it through behavior.

Her behavior sucks.

And no, she doesn't seem at all interested in changing it.

So, I have no interest in "unity" with her. Especially since in the case of people like that, "unity" feels more like "Borg."

I like small-d democracy; and you know, to me that involves more than talk, that involves how you behave and interact, even on a small, daily, personal level (Hey, personal is political, right?)

She isn't a democrat. and no, that's not (just) about what she says, it's about how she behaves, how she runs her site, how she interacts (or rather doesn't) with other people; and the effect that influence has.

That's the best way I have of putting it, I'm afraid.

belledame222 said...


Anyway, as per finding nice people--well, yes, I think there are a lot of 'em here. I dunno. I think, just keep talking and listening. "Open mind and open hand," as kai/zuky puts it. If anything more specific comes up, I'll let you know.

anyway, I'm glad to see you posting here, by any other name.

Yeah, I don't think anyone here has a problem with online pseuds--that was someone else. I do think it's kind of funny how some people immediately call "sock puppet!!" whenever someone else who doesn't agree with them and/or is hostile to them pops up. Like, clearly a bunch of people couldn't have simply arrived at similar conclusions on their own, especially if it means they don't like Me! o noes!!

belledame222 said...

So, what's this movie about, Tom? is it as good as Sorority Girls From Hell?

belledame222 said...

...Two things I really respect, that make me sit up and take notice, when I see it:

1) People who are able to offer compassion to someone else, even when they're in a lot of pain themselves. (Recent examples I could think of: Liz/grannyvibe crying over the unknown woman whose friends were holding a fundraiser for her; z/taught to despise coming over and offering condolences for Kim's kitty).

2) People who are able to go and listen/engage respectfully with someone who superficially represents everything they're against, or at least frighten them or alienate them. Am thinking here of some people who one might've thought unlikely candidates for dialogue, even friendship with Renegade, who went over and talked and listened anyway. They may not have changed their basic, even strongly felt positions on porn or sex work, but they engage Ren like a human, without sanctimony or scolding.

I see people who do that and I think, there's someone I at least want to know a bit more about, and engage respectfully in turn. It often leads to good results.

kactus said...

Ok, I just spent several hours re-reading that post, that thread, other threads, and just basically getting caught up.

A couple of things that struck me--first of all, I think it's lkynkl (?) who keeps referring to transpeople as basically transvestites--is this common radfem thinking, or just willful ignorance, or baiting?

And then mary sunshine's repeated use of the word "trannie" as an epithet--I could just hear her spitting that word out, all the hate and contempt she feels. And once more, trannie being a rather common pejorative for transvestite, therefore once again totally erasing trans experience.

Argh. Today I'm supposed to be baking cookies and getting ready for christmas; instead I'm revisiting ye old sexe wars.

Tom Nolan said...

OK, I haven't seen Sorority Girls from Hell - at least, I haven't seen a film of that name. So you're one up on me there.

The Abominable Doctor Phibes is a very strange watching experience. The protagonist is supposed to be a surgeon cum musicologist who, having had his face burnt off in an accident, and wearing a waxen one of his own devising, wreaks "terrible revenge" on the surgical team he deems responisble for his wife's death. This involves reenactments of the plagues of Egypt.

The film isn't one bit scary (one of the victims wakes to find bats in his room - easily identifiable as fruit bats actually - and, after a couple of close ups of the cutish little beasts, we cut to the resultant carnage. All he the victim had to do was hide under the sheets for gawdsake!) but it is nonetheless mesmerizing: both camp and disturbing at the same time.

Now, if you want a genuinely *frightening* film from the same epoch, and with some of the same actors, can I recommend "Theatre of Blood", if you haven't already seen it?

sophie said...

Belledame - thoughtful answers, I like.

It does make sense to me - I found it curious how you seem to pop up everywhere.
It also says something about the people who encourage discussion with you, because there are a number who have made their judgement about you (and several others) before I came along, for reasons I can't see.

The on-line pseudonym thing can be abused - but since I'm currently running about seven blogs I reckon there can also be good purpose in it. I just didn't see it as a good reason for mudslinging (can't remember who actually mentioned it).

belledame222 said...

Yeah, I actually don't remember where that subject came up in here (pseuds, that is); i just figured, hey, go with it, since you bring it up.

TN: scroll down a few posts for "Sorority Girls From Hell."

no, i have not seen Theatre of Blood, although it sounds vaguely familiar.

generally i like horror that's psychologically creepy rather than, or at the very least in addition to, chock full o' gore. camp's fun too, sure.

belledame222 said...

kactus: to be fair, a number of radical feminists, including ones that i just find no common ground with on a number of subjects, are as disgusted by this transphobia as we are.

i have not had the pleasure of encountering mary sunshine. lucky...i have no idea what goes on in that feverish little brain, and i'm not sure i want to. like i say, i'm more interested in the supposedly sane people who let that shit slide without comment, especially if they're hosting, than her herself.

belledame222 said... it just keeps getting better and better. Jack found this one (no, i don't know who said it, but i can make a couple of guesses).

Gay people? Oh, you mean really, really happy people?

Besides the fact that your ANALogy is at best, bizarre, I oppose ALL marriage, happy or not. Marriage is a barbaric institution...which grants men legal ownership of women...One doesn’t dismantle the house by adding another room onto the house, silly.

Terrific. Just fucking...

You know, it's probably a good thing we aren't having these conversations (if one wants to dignify such remarks as conversation) IRL; i really want to hit whoever said that, hard.

that may answer your question, btw, sophie: i'm not very nice, when i get pissed off. some people don't take kindly to it, i take it.

why they have a problem with antiprincess (if they do; i know some do) is a mystery to me, but i figure, their loss.

lilcollegegirl said...

I have no idea why I just read that entire thing, but I did. I don't understand how they can delude themselves sufficiently that their bs justifications for hate make any sense. Well, actually, I can, I've got my own bizarre and completely irrational wackiness, it just happens to be directed inward, so it hurts the world less, but I still KNOW when I'm doing it, even if I can't stop it (too tired, apathetic, need to finish that paper, can't deal right now), and they don't seem to at all. Also, not strictly on that topic but something I've noticed on blog threads in general is the amount of misunderstanding and a relative lack of attempts at clarification. (And the people who DO clarify are often misunderstood again, sometimes in contradiction with the previous misunderstanding.) And I'm still not sure why that happens. My only theory about why the misunderstanding happens in the first place is that people tend to knee-jerk in some fashion without first figuring out why, but I don't know why almost no one clarifies, even when asked in a reasonable manner. Thoughts anyone? Also, *hugs* for little light, and anyone else who's feeling frightened or ill.

Vanessa said...

I can't live in a blogosphere where someone who allows those sort of comments on their blog is considered acceptable.

So I won't. I'll be de-linking anyone who blogrolls her. It will at least make my blog reading experience a little happier.

belledame222 said...

You might want to give some of them fair warning; I do think a lot of people who have her listed maybe just haven't been paying such close attention, or feel it's impolite to delink, or some such. anyway there are a lot of good people who still have her 'rolled, and personally i don't want to delink them. I appreciate the sentiment, though, and I can't say I'd exactly weep if those people decided of their own volition to delink the creep. this particular bit of vileness is of course just the latest in a long long string of vilenesses. it's way past time.

Vanessa said...

Yeah, I'll probably send out an email. I just don't want to make too much of a stink and make it look like an attention-getting scheme on my part.

But yes, It's time.

FoolishOwl said...

All the communists I know support the rights of transgendered people and their struggle for freedom from oppression. I haven't polled fascists on it, but I expect they don't.

Nanette said...

Coming very late to this, but man... very bad stuff on that thread. Good stuff too, like people standing up against the bigotry (not twisty, that I saw, but I didn't read the entire thing), but still... that stuff like that would just be allowed to stand is really awful.

Although I support them, I'm pretty unfamiliar with the transgendered community (just found out that "tranny" or "trannie" is a pejorative), but it's bad enough that many of them face so much discrimination and misunderstanding from right wingers and others who are outside the fights for equality (of all sorts) but this outright hatred from some you'd think would be allies must be very hard to take. How dreadful that must have been for anyone reading that thread.

I don't read twisty... I pretty much figured out early on that many of the "buzz feminists" - my term for those you hear about from time to time from the feeder blogs "oh, everyone should be reading so and so!" are usually ones that bore me silly.

belledame222 said...

I think "tranny" is like "queer" or "dyke" or "fag;" i've seen it used non-pejoratively (and probably used it, cringe) by some of the younger folk, im certain contexts. I could be off. But there's a British guide called "The Good Tranny Guide," I know.

none of which excuses the fuckheads in question, for anything whatsoever, obviously.

Alon Levy said...

Oh, it's all about how you use the term. Take "Jew": it's normally a neutral term, but when a skinhead says, "Shut up, Jew" it's pejorative.

Vanessa, you should send emails. Jessica Valenti will likely be sympathetic (Feministing's editorial position is pro-trans), Lindsay likes radical feminists to the same degree I do, and Piny and Zuzu have no patience for transphobia. They'll probably be interested in a Delink Twisty campaign.

belledame222 said...

Lauren and I presume Jill aren't exactly thrilled about her either, these days.

Blackamazon said...

Know what . I'm just gonna....

Gimme a minute jsut gimme a minute

Lauren said...

You could say I'm "not thrilled." I just left a huge comment on Feministe about how letting people shit on your community says quite a bit about what you think and believe, and I'm a little tired of the "but she's a good writer" and "she's so snarky" trope.

I'm beginning to believe she's far more interested in impressing the mens -- and mimicking, ol' gentleman farmer -- than respecting the womens.

Katie said...

Awwwww. That's sad. I've only knowingly shared a public bathroom alone with one transsexual, but that was the only way I got to hear that she had, indeed, gotten breast implants! (I'd been wondering, and when we were alone, she told me why she'd been away (I was there to see her band play) for so many weeks.)

In other words, when you're in the bathroom with a transgendered person, you get to have the kind of conversations (that is, body-part conversations) that have, for some reason, been labeled taboo for discussions out in the crowd.

The bathroom's seclusion & privacy function for 2+ people interacting in a good way as much as they function for 2+ people interacting in a bad way.

It's sad to think that someone thinks a whole category of people is only capable of interacting with people in the worst way a space allows.

belledame222 said...

Lauren: it is hard to know. certainly i don't exactly find her oozing over with lurve for the wimminz. then again i'm not sure she oozes over with lurve for pretty much anyone. i think she wants attention, period, and praise; and that's pretty much it. doesn't really matter where it comes from or how she gets it.

btw, apparently her name really -is- Jill. i figured it was more bullshitting as well. and i suppose it is her M.O. to carefully aim it so that it could mean either one, to those in the know. in any case, no sympathy: live by the snark, die by the snark.

Lauren said...

Oh shit. She responds and completely misses the point.

I can't even start to tear up that post. It's too easy.

belledame222 said...

pass the popcorn...

Thirza said...

I don't get the bathroom trans panic either. I hope they never go to a queer event in Vancouver because as a rule bathrooms become automatically non-gendered during those events. It's really nice, no awkward moments, people get to pee when they need to pee, bio-girls take turns using the urinal, and if someone does have transphobia they have to get over it or else not have any kind of interesting social life. I think more events should designate their bathrooms as genderless, not just queer events.

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