Saturday, September 23, 2006

Oh Jesus fuck. Fuck -off.-

...Via brownfemipower, apparently T-Rex of firedoglake (he of the becoming-infamous "stop assailing your betters, [uppity WOC]") is determined to keep on digging till he breaks on through to the other side. not that China is likely to give him a much warmer reception than he's been getting over here, if he keeps talking like this:

Oh, and of course, I’m gay, but I guess in Liza’s world, the queers don’t count as a minority, cos (BECAUSE) I could swear I saw a couple of them at lunch with President Clinton. Or maybe the fact of my homosexuality is outweighed by my white-man-ism. (Or would that be my white-man-hood?) But hey, Pach is gay and Latino, so he gets double points on the aggrieved minority scale. He’s got my back.


Well, T-Rex. Since we are now playing Oppression Queen For A Day: I am queer AND female AND Jewish AND I have an extra head; therefore, I am senior to both of you (as well as an ice-cream salesperson). And as such, I have the authority to tell you: you're being a GIANT asshat.

Oh, wait; actually, I think I'd pretty much think so anyway.

And Liza's spelling and grammar look just fine to me; and exqueeze me, but who told you your own prose is so very sparkling? Oh, maybe I did, once upon a time. Well at any rate I used to think that you were, you know, not quite so much of an asshole. Too bad.

That Clinton luncheon was problematic for being ALL-WHITE. It's not a damn either-or: yeah, they ALSO need more diversity in sexual orientation. So the fuck what? It's bloody Harlem; all-white bloggers. Whining defensively about how very very well-meaning you are and how all those disgruntled meanie meanerton POC are just jealous ANYWAY does not change shit about the results. Just. accept it. and. do. better. next time.

And, AND, people writing at your fairly newly adopted site/friends/patron have been, yes, racist. Several times, now. Full stop. Liza called y'all out. She's not the only one. Deal with it, Mary.

update: and yet more, this one dated only three days ago, not six, so i don't even have to feel vaguely uneasy that i might be addressing old news and he's actually in the interim gone "my god, i'm sorry, what was i thinking, i'll never mix cough syrup and Clorox again:"

UPDATE 2: Due to widespread misinterpretation, the word “betters” has been struck from this post and replaced with something that more accurately conveys my authorial intent. Please. Stop. Whining.

What a coincidence! Here i just was saying the -same damn thing.-

42 comments:

Elayne said...

I think for some "so what?" bloggers we may need dumbed-down explanations, as if we were talking to Bush:

"It. Looks. Bad."

"It. Makes. Us. Seem. Like. Hy-po-crites."

"It. Gives. Us. No. Moral. High. Ground. By. Which. To. Cri-ti-cize. Re-pub-li-cans. For. Being. Racist."

belledame222 said...

If that's what they need, then I suppose so, bless their scabrous, venal little souls. yah: christ jesus forbid one might consider that such criticisms might be valuable for one's OWN sake; you know, growth? empathy? connections? Bueller?

and, sadly, they can ALWAYS point to the Republicans for being even worse and a lot of the time, they'll be right. so what that means is a lot of POC won't go over to the R side; they'll just, you know, stay home. be indifferent. is that what we want? (waits while they go count over the numberse again).

It's actually a wider problem: it's this (-is- it inevitable?) fascination with power for its own sake. Problem is, the Democrats -supposedly- are more or less at -least- meant to be standing in opposition to alla that: for the people, by the people. So, y'know, when you don't -act- like it, when it looks pretty damn clear that for you it's pretty much all glittering prizes and shiny photo ops, then, no, actually, a few pretty words (much less, as here, a few REALLY FUCKWITTED words) aren't really gonna cut it.

"By their fruits you will know them."

So let's see what's in the basket, then.

Alon Levy said...

Daou invited 5 different nonwhite bloggers, none of whom was able to come. I thought this was settled...

Alon Levy said...

But yeah, reading Democratic bloggers who think a) incestuous linking is something to be proud of and b) nothing matters but winning really don't know what they're talking about. I don't think every blogger who attended the Clinton conference is a Democrat (for a start, Jessica's a liberal), but I know Kos and Atrios are, and from what it seems, so is TRex.

belledame222 said...

No, it isn't settled, I'm afraid, and won't be no matter how many bloggers of color Daou invited to this one particular event (and couldn't make it). It isn't just this event, is the thing; this was a flashpoint for something much bigger.

>a) incestuous linking is something to be proud of and b) nothing matters but winning>

Well yah, exactly. Win -what,- finally?

What people have been saying elsewhere, and which I concur with, wrt this in particular, is that it isn't so much a question that you know the organizers of such events or the A-listers look at a blogger's photo or self-description and go uh-oh! Sie's one of THEM. Keep Out. No, they probably mean it that they want to see a diversity of faces and names, if only for the most calculated political reasons.

But the problem is that a lot of the bloggers of color (among others) who -don't- get the invite is that, well, they talk about some unfamiliar, maybe even uncomfortable-making (to the Dem A-listers), shit. Racial -issues,- for example. and -that- is what is really pissing people off at least as much as the representation. After all, if it were just "faces that look sort of like mine," people would be thrilled that Bush put Condi where she is, along with all the other horrid, reactionary people of color in that administration; hey, what more do you want?

Which is not to suggest that I think Kos or any of that lot are horrid and reactionary; just, they, well, sound more or less like everyone else. And that is the problem; and that is the reason why you're probably not gonna find more than four-five "top-level" bloggers (for example) of color among the sea of white. Because the others are out there, but they may well have other priorities besides the agreed-upon definition of "winning."

That is a problem. That is -the- problem. It's not a quick fix.

belledame222 said...

...But I mean: as people have also been saying. A while ago it was "where o where are all the women bloggers??" Same thing. So a lot of women bloggers do start emerging, and yes, Feministing (for example) certainly does have a different focus from say Kos, and this is a good thing, and it's very good that Jessica was invited.

Now what people are saying is, "where o where are all the bloggers of color?"

and, well, ironically, some white women are responding the same way as a lot of the boys did back then. "oh, what is their PROBLEM already? we INVITED two women! it's not our fault it's all male! yer all just so SENSITIVE."

(not saying there was an exactly equivalent event--I don't know--but that's certainly been the dynamic).

Amber said...

As I said at Alas a few days ago...

This is weird for me, because I actually know T-Rex. He's the brother of a close friend of mine. And I know he's not a racist jackface or anything... so it's just weird to see him getting assumed to be one.

Sure, he's kind of showing his ass with some of the statements he's been making. But it's just... I don't know... sure, you could say I'm "quick to defend" because I know him. But it's this kinda thing that just makes ya realize, yet again, that the blogosphere is NOT real life. And the judgements people mak online? Might or might not be real/fair/true/accurate/whatever.

Anyway. I feel like I should probably stay out of this but... yeah. Just had to say.

Amber said...

Oh, and also, I am 100% sure that I've been guilty of drawing conclusions, making assumptions, etc. about people based on their blog-writing, that might or might not actually be fair/true/whatever. As a matter of fact I have an inkling that I've probably been guilty of that a lot. How would I know? Well, I can't. But I guess it's just a reminder that this is something we all do, and it's not necessarily bad or evil or anything... it just is. And sometimes I think we all need a slice of humble pie.

And again... pls. don't take this the wrong way... I am not defending T-Rex's statements. Frankly I don't know what's happened to him lately with the way he's been writing... I think all the Firedoglake business has gone to his head, and I wonder what happened to the cool guy I used to sit on the porch with in Athens. But... still. I know I'm not totally objective, but the pile-on does disturb me a bit at that "defend my friends" level.

Alon Levy said...

Well yah, exactly. Win -what,- finally?

Elections, of course. As Kos said, it doesn't matter what we think, as long as we all support the Democrats no matter what, scream about every trivial difference between the parties, and talk exclusively about what passes for education, health care, and civil liberties in Democratic circles.

But the problem is that a lot of the bloggers of color (among others) who -don't- get the invite is that, well, they talk about some unfamiliar, maybe even uncomfortable-making (to the Dem A-listers), shit.

Exactly. Kos is Hispanic, after all. It's not that you can't get ahead in the Democratic blogosphere if you don't talk about what Dean has decided are Important Issues. Feminists could get ahead in the 'sphere because abortion is a central liberal value; the closest racial equivalent to that, the death penalty, isn't a major issue right now (and at any rate, most Americans are pro-DP, whereas most are pro-choice).

Donna said...

Amber, not all racism is KKK style "string 'em all up in the trees". The other type is those who don't mind that we live next door, or work with them in the same office, but if we question or challenge them suddenly they are telling us to "know our place" and "mind our betters". It's treating us like children or the mentally handicapped, like talking about how we are too stupid (spelling and grammar errors) to engage in the conversation, so now run along and let the adults chat amongst themselves.

When you think of a father (or mother) they do want what is best for their children, but they will decide that with little input from the children, and if the children don't like it, they will be sent to sit in the corner. That's why paternalism is an apt word for these types, and I'm sorry, but your friend TRex revealed himself to be one of these.

Amber said...

Amber, not all racism is KKK style "string 'em all up in the trees".

Yes, I understand that. Thanks, but I don't need the Racism 101 primer.

I thought I made clear in my comments that I'm not defending the things T-Rex has said. And in fact - as I already mentioned - I think he's waaaaay out of line. My comments were merely rumination on the whole online/offline friendship collision, and how weird that can be.

belledame222 said...

I don't blame you for defending your friend, Amber.

I suppose--and here i am extrapolating from my own stuff--it is more than possible to not really tweak or even experience...ism-ish stuff... coming from someone of your own peer group, whereas someone who isn't is much more acutely sensitive to subtler shit. Not that this was especially subtle, but, you know. Like: a guy is genuinely bewildered when his buddy suddenly starts getting called out on shockingly misogynistic shit; hey, that's not the Joe I know! And it might be that Joe's genuinely changed or having a weird attack; and/or it might also be that Joe's never shown you this side especially because, well, you wouldn't have been the target.

That said, i can well believe that the fdl thing has gone to his head; at any rate like i said i remember liking his stuff at Shakespeare's Sister. and it's possible i just never noticed either, but it sure -seems- to me that not only did this particular sitch not come up, but he didn't used to come off as -this- much of an arrogant ass. as i recall; it's been a while.

certainly the bulk of his tone is kind of, o, i don't know, newly knighted defending the palace? something.

which, and you know, i'd congratulated him on getting this gig shortly before all this happened--had stopped in at his site for the first time in dog's years--it's not like i you know begrudge him or anyone recognition.

but jesus christ, dude. overidentifying much? and oh yeah: the gay thing. is this like i don't know: they DO like me (even though I'm gay), they DO, they DO; if they're actually racist they could be homophobic too and so, uhhh, uhhhhh...well, nuh-UH.

so make it about this one woman's problem instead; let's close the gates on this one instead of on me.

just speculating; i have no idea really.

but if it IS that, he may want to ponder the old adage about being courteous to the people you meet on the way up, on account of they're the same ones you're gonna meet coming back down.

belledame222 said...

anyway, donna, i agree that "paternalism" is a good term at least for what he did here.

you know what really irks about the whole thing is, once again, the tacit assumption seems to be that once you or even rather something you did or said has been tarred "racist," you must be COMPLETELY and ALWAYS racist and therefore a BAD BAD BAD person.

and certainly there is nothing one could ever do to change this. and anyway even to consider changing would be like admitting that YES I AM BAD I AM I AM I AM

...goes the process at some level, i am thinking.

so instead of backing off and going, okay, i did stick my foot in it, i was angry, i will have to go and think about this, apologize for this bit but i am still angry, whatever;

just self-entrench even further and lash out MORE, in the hopes that by the sheer force of one's blasts, one can avoid any of the "badness" sticking to one.

TripleJ63 said...

It makes me think of Allen's macaca moment, and how he is tap dancing now saying it's a made up word, not something he heard his mama saying when she saw a black person around. He knows he is caught but refuses to own up to it.

I think TRex is in the same spot. I think he knows you don't tell anyone, especially in a racially charged situation, to mind their betters. So now he is pretending he doesn't know that it is a common racial slur, and instead it's "our baggage". He knows he is caught but refuses to own up to it.

I was surprised that so few of the white bloggers will discuss this. I suppose I shouldn't have been, since many of them are dependent on links from the A-listers that were at this function for their traffic. Their fear of sinking into obscurity outweighs standing up for their principles. Which is rich since these are the same people who slam Democratic insiders for being on the cocktail weenie circuit, unable to give up their access to parties and movers and shakers. They are just the same.

Gotta give some love to Elayne. She has been keeping this alive on her blog and trying to get people to pay attention.

Amber, people do slip. It's hard to avoid being racist when the messages are there everywhere that POC aren't as good/smart/worthy/beautiful etc as whites. I just hope he takes some time to self evaluate and get rid of these ideas in his head. I worry that his denial of what happened, might also mean that he is not just pretending to save face, but really in denial or even try to blame Liza and other blacks for his mistake, for "making" him do it.

belledame222 said...

>I suppose I shouldn't have been, since many of them are dependent on links from the A-listers

That was what (else, okay) was really galling; they delinked culturekitchen. Bad Liza! No biscuit! That is bullshit.

TripleJ63 said...

I hate sounding paranoid, but I'm not so sure that FDL didn't de-link Republic of T in retaliation too. I know that Jane told Terrance that they delinked when FDL moved to a new server and it had nothing to do with what happened now, but I can't give her the benefit of the doubt the way that Terrance has. It's seeing how vicious and petty they are that makes me wonder, and seeing how power hungry TRex has gotten. In the past he has said things like, "I'm so popular!" but you could believe he was being ironic, or joking. During this he said to Liza at Culture Kitchen that he was going to make her a star, and he was no longer kidding or being ironic. He was threatening. He was saying I'm bigger than you and I can hurt you, like any other bully would. That makes me wonder if he didn't de-link Liza himself, and maybe Jane doesn't even know it. Maybe she is looking for another explanation and the move to the new server is good enough for her.

I guess the lesson is, when things like this happen, the trust is gone. You can't take people at their word when they reveal themselves for mean spirited hypocrites...and racists. The same goes for all the bloggers and commenters who are ignoring it or looking for excuses instead of condemning it. That's what makes this so depressing, knowing that the people we thought were our allies will abandon us so easily, for links, for access, so they won't be abandoned too by the hypocrites they are busy cozying up to.

belledame222 said...

yeah it is depressing.

hadn't been following any of that crowd enough to know; dunno Republic of T that well, but it sounds like it's in keeping with, yeah.

What always interests me is: how people, even the ones who -don't- behave like this, seem to take it as sort of a given that it makes sense that people will behave like this, iow that the lust for power or being a STAR, BABY is, well, everyone has some of that, right?

and it's like: yes, everyone or most of us probably -do- have SOME of it, but it doesn't really answer -why-, much less why some people are more likely to act like utter grasping shits in pursuit of it.

i mean, what is this, really?

"You like me, you REALLY LIKE ME."

but what does that actually mean, at the end of the day? was this trip really necessary? is this actually fulfilling whatever hunger that was?

I want to say to T-Rex, hey, you're One Of The Tribe, you must know "All About Eve." Watch it (again). Watch carefully.

anyway, as i was saying over at zuky's (great blog, p.s.), i am now feeling pretty confident in my belief that in fact this is, besides whatever bone-bred racism and misogyny might have already been there (certainly these sentiments he's been expressing did not come out of a clear blue sky), this is also overcompensation:

http://www.kaichang.net/2006/09/onward.html#comment-22886959

and the fact that T-Rex has now gone back to "what about ME, huh? am i not a minority too, HUH??" [Kai noted he did this in the John Yoo thread as well], suggests strongly to me that in fact a good part of what's really fuelling him is that he knows he has to dance extra fast if -he- wants to keep up with the Big (straight) Boys; and resents the hell out of it; but since he can't or won't really bite the hand he thinks is feeding him, he transfers all that resentment onto the -other- people who remind him of how it really is; which he knows quite well at some level, i expect. fuck you! they do TOO like me, they REALLY LIKE ME! MY NEW FRIENDS ARE NOT HOMOPHOBIC!! All things just keep getting better, GODDAMIT

belledame222 said...

As for the people making excuses...I tend to mentally treat them as having just lost a certain amount of credibility in my personal bank. Whether it's enough to actually close out their account depends on how much they had to begin with. Subsequent such events deplete it further; they can also make it up (and sometimes do). It's case by case, as much as possible. Not always easy, but i find it a good way to keep from dissolving into bitterness.

also, like it or not, but most people often just go along with the crowd. in that John Yoo thread i noted at least one person that did an about-face mid-thread, because someone else had spoken up. "you're right, and i'm sorry." so. it's not impossible. it's just, there's a lot of work to do.

belledame222 said...

The -other- thing i think sometimes happens is that good lefty-ish types tend to treat the desire for personal power, ambition, attention, glittering prizes, and so on, as, well, vaguely wrong somehow. So it goes into the Shadow; and then when it does finally get a chance to emerge, it's all twisted and weird, like.

I realize this may sound like it goes against what i just said, but i don't see anything wrong with ambition, wanting to be recognized, material rewards, and so forth. Not at all. And I freely cop to my own desires in that, too, and I give Liza props for coming right out and saying she thinks she, personally, deserves a place in the sun as well; yeah, it's the principle, but it's not JUST the principle, sometimes: what about me? What indeed.

and yet, like i said: the frigging principle also matters.

Not because it's abstract and "higher." Because if you throw away everything and everyone else for the sake of that award, you've just completely lost the plot. Sold your soul (as well as your brothers and sisters and comrades and kids and friends and so on) for a mess of pottage. Then get extra bitter because you did all that work and all you got was this lousy bowl of pottage. Well, hello there: YOU FORGOT WHAT YOU WERE WORKING FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE. -that's- the problem. what you really wanted has probably been there all along, did you care to look.

belledame222 said...

>slam Democratic insiders for being on the cocktail weenie circuit, unable to give up their access to parties and movers and shakers.

I mean, it's like: o.k., money and recognition; but assuming you could HAVE that ANYWAY, how much more do you need? and does anyone -really- like going to those godawful parties? The ones i've attended have been like Dawn of the Frigging Dead, I mean the original, -slow- version.

then again i expect they weren't A-list; maybe it suddenly gets a lot better once you break through that golden upper crust.

but somehow, i doubt it. at least in terms of the whole, "do you actually LIKE any of these people?"

and frankly champagne is way overrated.

Amber said...

I worry that his denial of what happened, might also mean that he is not just pretending to save face, but really in denial or even try to blame Liza and other blacks for his mistake, for "making" him do it.

I don't want to hypothesize. Because right now, to me, this is seeming a little too much like people playing armchair psychologist to RandomBird a while back. And I thought that was shitty.

Now look, let me say it again before anyone jumps all over my shit: I don't agree with the statement's he's made. I think he's totally out of line, he fucked up, he showed his ass (and continues to do so), and so on. I'm not trying to say it's okay. I'm not trying to cover for him.

But I feel I can't accurately convey what I mean, now. Anything I say will end up getting me painted as "apologizing for the racist."

And it's hard for me, because you know I love to play armchair psychologist! There are so many people out there doing and saying so many fucked up things, and I have theories galore. So in this case, it's like... well? What? Am I wrong to do that to others, if I find it odd to see someone I know IRL taken apart like this? (Even if I think he deserves it.)

Anyway, carry on.

belledame222 said...

yeh, you're right.

otoh it's not really that heavy an analysis to observe that what he's doing here is kind of classic pass-the-buck/kick-down.

I do think that whether he "really means it," whether and to what degree he "really is racist." All's i know is that his -actions- here are really racist, and he's not even acknowledging it, and, well...

as has been said elsewhere in a slightly different context: ultimately people don't really care what's in your (general you) heart, is so-and-so a -good person-, at least wrt situations like this. They want to know, do you see the problem here? are you going to make -any- sort of reparation? No, you're just going to keep on digging. Well, shit.


look, i dunno, maybe you still know him better than anyone else here; have you talked to him lately? i get him being on the defensive, esp. in public, but...

belledame222 said...

That was meant to say,

>I do think that whether he "really means it," whether and to what degree he "really is racist."...

...is kind of beside the point.

Because all most of us know is what we see on the screen; and further, the people who are hurt and offended are kind of more concerned about THEMSELVES than about his character either way, so...

belledame222 said...

As for my speculating that perhaps this is a way of over-identifying because he's actually feeling a bit precarious himself running with the Big (straight) Boys, yah, i don't really know that either, it's true; and i suppose you could call it invasive. honestly, though, as far as i'm concerned that would be putting his actions in a slightly -more sympathetic- light, if anything.

but maybe it is better to just take him completely at face value, in which case...well, see original posting.

and actually as long as he doesn't change anything, again, it doesn't really matter, ultimately.

just makes me sort of morbidly curious to see how his career unfolds from here on out.

i expect he'll do just fine, really, at that.

Amber said...

otoh it's not really that heavy an analysis to observe that what he's doing here is kind of classic pass-the-buck/kick-down.

I do think that whether he "really means it," whether and to what degree he "really is racist." All's i know is that his -actions- here are really racist, and he's not even acknowledging it, and, well...


As I've said, I agree. My comments have been more of just thinking-out-loud, rumination, musing, etc... Admittedly, probably not appropriate for me to take over your comment thread in that way, so... I apologize for that.

And no, I haven't talked to him lately. Wonder if he'd deign to talk to me now that he's a big hotshot blogger super-star. Ha! Seriously... I think it's gone to his head.

Alon Levy said...

I was surprised that so few of the white bloggers will discuss this. I suppose I shouldn't have been, since many of them are dependent on links from the A-listers that were at this function for their traffic. Their fear of sinking into obscurity outweighs standing up for their principles.

Okay, do you have any evidence that anyone's doing that, except for T-Rex?

Because by the same token, I can say that the radical blogosphere keeps hammering on it even after Daou made it clear he invited plenty of nonwhites just because the radicals are afraid that Ampersand will say they're racist.

belledame222 said...

it's not what they're doing. it's what they AREN'T doing (or saying) that's bothering people. and it isn't about Daou, already, OR about how great (or not) anyone's INTENTIONS were. anyway Terrence of Republic of T made some rather gracious retractions, certainly far more gracious than anyone from fdl has been.

and, um, what radicals? afraid of Amp how? alon, you do know that a lot of the "radicals" (and progressives) actually take this very personally? and probably don't really give that much of a damn what Amp thinks, although are no doubt pleased he's weighed in at least, assuming they go to Alas at all; because they kind of already reached the same conclusion themselves?

belledame222 said...

and frankly i think it's a stretch to call it "plenty." you said "five" and that's the -most- i've heard anyone say; out of twenty, frankly, that's not so hot. two is less hot. especially considering apparently there was a backup list, and those replacements were all apparently white, so:

shrug. again: this is structural, this is longterm, this is not about a handful of people being miffed because they weren't invited to the party. this is about: what, finally, do these A-list bloggers actually give a crap about? is this then "meet the new boss, same as the old boss," after all? and if so, now what?

Alon Levy said...

and, um, what radicals? afraid of Amp how? alon, you do know that a lot of the "radicals" (and progressives) actually take this very personally?

Yeah, I know many of them take it personally. And so do a lot of liberals, including some who as far as I can tell don't read Kos or link to him outside their blogrolls. TRex is a sanctimonious idiot who deserves everything Chris Clarke is doing to him. That doesn't mean Lindsay and Jessica, to pick two bloggers I read regularly, are A-lister's pets.

and frankly i think it's a stretch to call it "plenty." you said "five" and that's the -most- i've heard anyone say; out of twenty, frankly, that's not so hot.

It's 15, not 20. About every third American is nonwhite (counting Hispanics as nonwhite); about every third invitee was.

belledame222 said...

Yeah, I know, I think Jessica came in for more heat than she deserved, too, and said so. and I like Lindsay. I certainly don't think the people who went to the luncheon are bad people for going; and a lot of buttons are being pushed all over the place. and like i said, ultimately this is not about Daou.

and okay, fifteen then.

but, main point still stands. this was a flashpoint for a more ongoing, bigger problem.

belledame222 said...

...anyway, per this blowup, it is -also- primarily about not so much even T-Rex but the person he's defending, Jane Hamsher, who is quickly establishing herself as one of the Big Dogs. with nassssty sharrrp teeth. and also people are remembering that last incident with the image of Lieberman in blackface at her spot. and the reaction when people protested.

pretty good roundup here:

http://sunrunner.wordpress.com/2006/09/26/jane-hamsher-the-lefts-answer-to-ann-coulter/

Anna in Portland (was Cairo) said...

Regarding Amber's musings about this guy - it is strange that i just came from a discusion at Pandagon about near relations of various commenters being really super racist. You might enjoy reading that. Sometimes people you think you know or understand will suddenly say something really horrifying.

TripleJ63 said...

alon, you are right that Jessica deserves some credit. She did discuss this on her site and did not shut down comments or try to shout down anyone the way that FDL did, or MyDD, etc. I'm not sure why you brought Lindsay into this, she wasn't there, and as far as I know hasn't discussed this on her blog. I did see was commenting on the thread that Feministe had going on this issue though. Did I miss something?

Belledame, you brought up an important distinction. It is ok to be ambitious, to want attention and traffic for your blog. Most people do blog hoping for an audience or you might as well be talking to yourself. The point you raised is that these people have to ask, what am I doing this for? What are the principles behind it? If they must forgo the principles for the popularity, is it worth it?

Amber, most thinking people have to do the armchair psychologist thing. We have to try to figure out why things happen, why people do the things they do. Sometimes we even hope we are wrong in our "analysis". The reason I wrote "thinking people", is because I find it less likely that conservatives look for real motives, everything is black and white, no gray, no trying to understand the other side. They don't think things through!

Nanette said...

I have not been impressed with either Jessica or Lindsay, personally. Of course, I'd not been a regular reader of either of their blogs before this, so I'm just basing my reaction on the moment.

I do think it's to Jessica's credit that she did post on the lack of color at the Clinton blogger event, and also that she didn't (as far as I know) censor commenters on the post, but she has very definitely - to my knowledge - avoided any mention of, or any taking of a stand on the FDL/racism issue. The booming silence on this is one of my pet peeves, and is definitely a sort of weathervane for me as to which blogs I will visit in the future.

Lindsay's stand was that it was a "personal tiff" and that the FDL post was a little out of line, it's all Hillary's fault, it was everything except for racist but let's move on (with her apparently moving on to posting on the FDL site).

Anyway, people can do what they wish, and what they consider to be in their own best interests, and in the interests of the greater "progressive or feminist" movements, personal friendships and all that, but still... I am not impressed. With them or, of course, with many of the other bloggers in their particular arena/level of participation and reach.

Still, I like that, because of all this, I've found a good many blogs that I'd not heard of before that I find well worth reading, most so much better than the ones I am no longer reading :)

belledame222 said...

I don't know that she's said anything in their defense, fdl, either, has Jessica.

i can understand being underwhelmed with "politic" silence on this from anyone, particularly someone who just got a lot of sympathy for her own tsuris; otoh i'm still inclined to give a bit of slack in that the sympathy was because she just finished up being on the receiving end of a huge (unrelated) and totally out of left field toxic dump; i could personally understand not wanting to take on Hamsher and her attack poodle on top of it just at the moment.

which is not to say that i know that she'd be any likelier to do so were it not the case, or will do any such in future. from what i understand she tends to try to stay out of drama/fights as much as possible. dunno if the Althouse thing, which was kind of brought to her doorstep, will change her thoughts on that longterm, as it's true that a lot of people who didn't know here stood up for her, and yes there's a certain implicit exchange there, i think.

belledame222 said...

and Lindsey should have known better, yes. Hillary has fuckall (directly) to do with this particular bullshit, and fuck fucking firedoglake, finally, for fuck's sake.

belledame222 said...

anyway, thanks, nanette, and welcome.

Alon Levy said...

Lindsay's stand was that it was a "personal tiff" and that the FDL post was a little out of line, it's all Hillary's fault, it was everything except for racist but let's move on (with her apparently moving on to posting on the FDL site).

Lindsay's stance, which at the time was reasonable, was that Daou only invited people who were supportive of or neutral on Hillary, which excluded the largest nonwhite bloggers. It later turned out that some of the invitees were anti-Hillary - I don't remember names, but I remember its being brought up on Feministe, and I remember Lindsay's dropping that stance afterward.

I'm not sure why you brought Lindsay into this, she wasn't there, and as far as I know hasn't discussed this on her blog. I did see was commenting on the thread that Feministe had going on this issue though. Did I miss something?

I was mostly talking about the reaction to her "Okay, can we move on now?" point on Feministe. I don't remember exactly what she told me about the whole thing when I last saw her, which was about a day after Althouse insulted Jessica, but she mentioned Steve Gilliard's not being invited (though I don't think she mentioned the overall racial makeup).

Nanette said...

Thanks for the welcome, belledame.

I'm sort of willing to give people the benefit of the doubt. As I said, I don't read their blogs, so I have no real knowledge of them. I've mostly decided just to support the ones that have stood up, and forget about worrying about the rest... their motivations, reactions etc - they belong to the persons themselves and they'll have to live with them. I am not a therapist or a divinator, so...

Mind you, it is sort of freaky to watch how very easy it was to turn people (mostly of color) with concerns into blog whores and attention seekers and uppity folks who just have a personal ax to grind or who are being deceived by an evil person, with little or no protest at all from the majority of supposed allies.

Reminded me (on a much, MUCH smaller and less tragic scale) of how easy it was to turn the victims of Katrina into thugs and criminals and the entrenched poor, completely removing their individuality and humanity from them.

We have a long way to go in this country, I'm thinking.

liza said...

i just dropped for a cup of tea, am laughing at your curds and whey and then i get to this.

What. The. Hell.

it is for a reason that i do not read FDL. honestly, to each their own. i just don't like it. give me myleftwing.com or even boomantribune.com anytime.

what is wrong with that guy?!?!

i had jeff langstraat blogging for at least a year before any of the "straight" blogs of the "a-list" even thought about anybody writing about queer politics. geezus.

what an a**hole.

then again, since he is speaking for hamsher, are we to assume she's wearing a queer face to front-page shit she wouldn't write about? because, in that post he wrote about me, she was all over the comments well into the 400s. and leaving really classy comments too.

belledame222 said...

"Batshit insane/professional sycophant/both authoritarians with deep nasty streak" respectively, seems like Occam's Razor from here.

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